Pepin of Landen - Father Unknown or Carloman?

Despite this Discussion - referenced clearly in the Curator Note - A Curator override has been used to add Carloman of Landen and Gertrudis of the Bavarians as parents: with no attempt at a discussion on updated research here. Removing, pending that Discussion.

Sharon Elizabeth Richards Writes

Gertrudis of the Bavarians

The only daughter of Garibald and Waldrada (unattested in FMG) married Evin aka Euin of Tridentum. Her name may or may not have been Gertrude, but if the Daughter of the aforemention couple is in fact Gertrude of Bavaria, she did not marry Karloman.

Should she be detached from Carloman of Landen

Who is Waldrade de Landen wife of
Gamardus Babon d'Angouleme showing as their daughter?

Is Garibald I, duke of the Bavarians showing with too many children?

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/BAVARIA.htm#Garibald

GARIBALD (-[591]). GARIBALD I Duke of Bavaria. … m (after 555) as her third husband, WALDRADA, widow (firstly) of THEODEBALD I King of the Franks, repudiated wife (secondly) of CLOTAIRE I King of the Franks,

Duke Garibald & his wife had three children:

a) GUNDOALD (-murdered 612). … m ---, a Lombard.
b) THEODELINDIS. …
m firstly (before [590]%29 as his second wife, AUTHACHAR [Authari] King of the Lombards, son of KLEPH King of the Lombards & his wife --- (-5 Sep 590). m secondly (late 590 or after) [as his second wife,] AGILOLF King of the Lombards, son of --- (-615).
c) daughter . Paulus Diaconus records that "Euin dux Tridentinorum" married "filiam Garibaldi Baioariorum regis"[40]. m EVIN

This disagrees with the Italian Wikipedia family shown on geni.

It's been a while since this Discussion. Help me with how it links to Pepin of Landen

Pepin of Landen was disconnected from his parents Carloman of Landen and Gertrudis of the Bavarians and sibling Waldrade de Landen by Sharon Doubell.
Oct 19, 2021 at 10:58 AM · undo

Walk me through what you want me to do here - I'm still not following. Sorry.

See above -

Gertrudis of the Bavarians
The only daughter of Garibald and Waldrada (unattested in FMG) married Evin aka Euin of Tridentum. Her name may or may not have been Gertrude, but if the Daughter of the aforemention couple is in fact Gertrude of Bavaria, she did not marry Karloman.

As far as I can tell, correct, Gertrude of Bavaria did not have those parents, any more then she had that son (already dealt with). But Karloman’s family, altogether, is following Italian Wikipedia on Geni, not Medlands. And with that, I’m out of my (quick study only) depth.

Family currently shows as:

Carloman, maior domus Lotharii - detached as father of Pepin of Landin

Husband of Gertrudis of the Bavarians - probably another daughter, mother of Pepin of Landen, in whose family we find the first names of the Agilolfingians. [13] https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garibaldo_I_di_Baviera#Famiglia_e_figli

Father of Waldrade de Landen - no source in profile, originally added to Geni by Justin

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garibaldo_I_di_Baviera#Famiglia_e_figli
Lineage

Garibaldo and Valdrada had:

1. probably Tassilone I. No document lists the name of Tassilone's father, but since he is the father of Garibaldo II and succeeds Garibaldo I, who has other sons, Tassilone I is believed to be the eldest son of Garibaldo I.[10]
2. Theodelinda († 627), wife of the Lombard kings Autari and Agilulf.[11][12]
3. Grimoaldo.[11]
4. Gundoaldo, duke of Asti and father of Ariperto, king of the Lombards.[11][12]
5. a daughter married to Ewin, Duke of Trent.[11][12]
6. probably another daughter, mother of Pepin of Landen, in whose family we find the first names of the Agilolfingians.[13]
7. probably Romilda († 610), wife of Gisulf II, Duke of Friuli († 610), in whose family several children bear the baptismal names of the Agilolfingians.[14]

13. Settipani 1989, p. 68-9. (Christian Settipani, Les Ancêtres de Charlemagne, Parigi, 1989)

Okay - thankyou -

so the question about Gertrudis of the Bavarians and Carloman of Landen is whether or not they're the parents of Pepin of Landen ?

1. On the question of whether or not she is Pepin's mother - I don't see any proof here at all.

2. On Carloman as father, Ben seems to have summed it up in 2010:

Ben M. Angel notes on September 25, 2010: This individual appears to be based on speculation. My brief analysis follows:

Children:

Pepin Le Vieux - FMG doesn't cite a parent (apparently Pepin I is at the edge of the scope of the Medieval Lands research project), but there is a citation under Itta, his wife: 'The Annales Metenses name "matertera ipsius [Pippini]…virgo Domino consecrate Geretrudis" and record that she founded the monastery "in loco…Nivella cum genitrice sua Itaberga"[21]. ' English and German Wikipedia cite only Carloman (Karlmann von Landen-Austrasien) as having been mentioned in the Chronicle of Fredigaire, the main biographical source for Pepin Le Vieux.

French Wikipedia provides the main amount of information on Gertrude in a section marked as speculative, the text of which follows:

Aucun document contemporain ne mentionne le nom de ses parents, et la Vita Garitrudis abbatissae Nivialencis rédigée au viie siècle se borne à dire que son origine est si illustre que nul en Europe n'ignore le nom et la gloire de ses aïeux. Au xe siècle, la Genealogia regum Francorum parle de «Carloman, maire du Palais d'Austrasie sous Théodebert II [596-612] et père de Pépin»[2], puis au xie siècle, la Vita Pippini ducis le dit simplement fils d'un Carloman, sans plus de précision. La documentation contemporaine permet de confirmer l'inexistence d'un maire du palais nommé Carloman au début du viie siècle. Les historiens sont partagés sur l'existence même de Carloman, certains rejetant complètement l'information[3]. Mais cette mention de Carloman comme père de Pépin dans la Vita Pippini ducis n'apporte pas de prétention particulière et semble être issue d'une autre source que la Genealogia regum Francorum. De plus, à la naissance de Charles Martel, le continuateur de Frédégaire, indique que son père Pépin de Herstal le nomma d'un nom pris à sa propre langue, c'est-à-dire à sa langue maternelle, ce qui indique que le prénom de Charles provient de sa famille maternelle, donc celle de Pépin de Landen[4].

Quant à sa mère, elle reste inconnue des différentes sources tant contemporaines qu'ultérieures. Cependant, on peut remarquer dans la parenté proche de Pépin une certain nombre de porteurs de prénoms agilolfinges. Il est en effet frère d'une Waldrade[5] et père d'un Grimoald et d'une Gertrude. Comme aucun document ne mentionne Pépin comme un Agilolfinge, ce dernier ne peut être allié à cette famille que par les femmes. Chronologiquement, le seul lien agnatique qui rende compte de cette onomastique est que la mère de Pépin de Landen soit une fille de Garibald, premier duc de Bavière, et de son épouse Waldrade, veuve des rois Théodebald et de Clotaire Ier. Compte tenu de la transmission du prénom Gertrude, qui est celui d'une probable nièce de Garibald, à la fille de Pépin, il est possible que la mère de Pépin portait ce prénom[6].

References:

2.↑ Information reprise par Fustel de Coulanges, Histoire des institutions politiques de l'ancienne France [archive], vol. 6, livre II, Hachette, Paris, 1907, p. 125.

3.↑ Karl August Eckhardt, Studia Merovingica, Witzenhausen, 1975.

4.↑ Settipani 1989, p. 67.

5.↑ Selon Ummo, dans sa Vita Arnulfi (au milieu du IXe siècle). Cette Waldrade serait la mère de Wandregisel, fondateur de l'abbaye de Saint-Wandrille

6.↑ Settipani 1989, p. 68.

In English:

No contemporary document mentions the names of Pepin's parents, and the "Vita Garitrudis abbatissae Nivialencis" written in the 7th century, merely states that he is so famous that no one in Europe knows the name and glory of his ancestors. In the 10th century, the "Genealogia regum Francorum" cites a "Carloman, Mayor of the Palace of Austrasia under Theodebert II [596-612] and the father of Pepin" [2]. In the 11th century, the "Vita Ducis Pippin" cites only that he was the son of Carloman, without elaborating.

Contemporaneous documentation does not show a mayor of the palace named Carloman in the early 7th century. Historians are divided on the existence of Carloman, completely rejecting the accuracy some information [3]. But the mention of Carloman as father of Pepin in the "Vita Ducis Pippin" makes no particular claim and seems to come from a source other than the "Genealogia regum Francorum." In addition, in the section that covers the birth of Charles Martel, the successor of Fredegaire, said that his father, Pepin of Herstal, gave him a name taken from his own language, that is to say his mother tongue, indicating that Charles' first name comes from his mother's family, or that of Pepin of Landen [4].

As for his mother, she remained unknown in contemporary sources. However, within the close relatives of Pepin are a number of those with names coming from the Agilolfings. There is indeed a brother of Waldrade [5], and a father of Grimoald, and a Gertrude. As no document of Pepin's origin mentions an Agilolfing, the latter cannot be combined with this family maternally. Chronologically, the only agnatic relationship that reflects this set of onomastics is the mother of Pepin of Landen being the daughter of Garibald, first Duke of Bavaria, and his wife Waldrade, widow of Kings Theodebald and Clotaire I. Given the transmission of the name Gertrude, who was possibly a niece of Garibald, to a daughter of Pepin, it is possible that the mother of Pepin first carried this name [6].

Parents:

According to FMG, German and English Wikipedia, and Karl-Heinz Schreiber's Mittelalter page on Garibald I of Bavaria (the Garibald who married Waldrada), there is no Gertrude listed. FMG cites an unnamed daughter, but this daughter apparently married between 590 and 596 to Evin, dux Tridentinorum (Trent), which pushed Garibald into the camp opposing the Franks.

Schreiber cites a daughter of Garibald named Theodelinde (570-628) having married at age 15 to Merovingian King Childebert II of the Franks (later repudiated apparently), but not to Carloman de Landen.

A proposed genealogy is presented later, illustrating the speculative position of Gertrude.

Sources used:

Foundation for Medieval Genealogy page on Merovingian Nobility:

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FRANKSMaiordomi.htm#_Toc184117347

Foundation for Medieval Genealogy page on Bavaria:

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/BAVARIA.htm#Garibald

English Wikipedia pages for Garibald of Bavaria and Pepin of Landen:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garibald_I_of_Bavaria

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepin_of_Landen

German Wikipedia pages for Garibald of Bavaria and Pippin der Ältere:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garibald_I.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pippin_der_%C3%84ltere

French Wikipedia page for Pepin de Landen:

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C3%A9pin_de_Landen

From Karl-Heinz Schreiber's page on Garibald:

http://www.mittelalter-genealogie.de/agilolfinger/garibald_1_herzog...

I don't see any more info here to suggest we should re-open the question, unless I'm looking too quickly.

Re: so the question about Gertrudis of the Bavarians and Carloman, maior domus Lotharii is whether or not they're the parents of Pepin of Landen ?

NO, it at all in question. That was resolved as speculative, as you say.

The issues raised by Sharon Elizabeth Richards in her email to managers is about

Gertrudis of the Bavarians

Sharon Elizabeth Richards Wrote:

The only daughter of Garibald and Waldrada (unattested in FMG) married Evin aka Euin of Tridentum. Her name may or may not have been Gertrude, but if the Daughter of the aforemention couple is in fact Gertrude of Bavaria, she did not marry Karloman.

Settipani, as cited in Italian Wikipedia, apparently has two (unnamed) daughters of Garibaldo and Valdrada had:

a daughter married to Ewin, Duke of Trent.[11][12]

probably another daughter, mother of Pepin of Landen, in whose family we find the first names of the Agilolfingians.[13]

And neither is shown as a wife of Carloman of Landen

And the profile Waldrade de Landen as their child is unsupported.

If we follow Settipani, we are missing the daughter of Garibald married to Evin, dux Tridentinorum (Trent), which pushed Garibald into the camp opposing the Franks.

And the profile Gertrudis of the Bavarians

• speculatively the mother of Pepin
• speculatively the niece (not daughter) of Garibald I, duke of the Bavarians
• not the wife of Carloman of Landen
• not the mother of Waldrade de Landen

I believe that is how Settipani placed her.

Maybe put it on a Discussion from her profile? That has a better chance of getting those managers and her Curator's attention.

Settipani's sources are important though, otherwise he is only positing options - worth recording - but not locking into a World Tree.

Jason Scott Wills - you’re the curator for Garibald I, duke of the Bavarians his wife Waldrada of the Lombards & their family.

You were on the mails from Sharon Elizabeth Richards

New discussion opened, specifically about how to best show the Gertrudis & Carloman profiles on geni:

https://www.geni.com/discussions/274928?msg=1678280