Bégon, comte de Paris, marquis de Septimanie - THE PROBLEM OF HIS 3 POSSIBLE WIVES:

Started by Sharon Doubell on Friday, June 29, 2012
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6/29/2012 at 1:57 AM


Count Begue/Beggo/ Begon has 2 (or 3) equally likely wives according to original sources – but only one set of descendents (Luithard, Eberhard, Susanna):

Either his wife (and mother of these 3 kids) was Charlemagne’s daughter:

'''1) Alpaida (by Adaltrude)''' Sources below, or

'''2) Amaudra (by Himiltrude)''' - less convincingly sourced than the other two, at the moment -Reference to her mother on Die Genealogie der Franken und Frankreichs, noted by Wikipedia, says she later married a Count of Paris.

or she was Charlemagne’s granddaughter:

'''3) Alpais (through his son, Louis I)''' Sources Below

'''Sources:''' From Charles Cawley's Medieval Lands database


'''BEGO''' ([755/60]-28 Oct 816).

m firstly ---. There is no proof of this possible first marriage of Bego. However, as noted below, if his wife Alpais was the daughter of Emperor Louis, there would have been a considerable age difference between her and Bego, which suggests the possibility of an earlier marriage.]

m [secondly] ([806]) ALPAIS, illegitimate daughter of [Emperor LOUIS I & his mistress ---] ([793/94]-23 Jul 852 or after, bur [Reims]).
Flodoard refers to "Ludowicus Alpheidi filie sue uxori Begonis comitis"[67]. The Annales Hildesheimenses name "filiam imperatoris…Elpheid" as the wife of "Bicgo de amici regis" when recording the death of her husband[68].
Settipani discusses the debate about the paternity of Alpais, preferring the theory that Emperor Charles I was her father[69]. If Emperor Louis was her father, it is unlikely that she was born before [793/94], given his known birth date in 778. It would therefore be chronologically tight for her to have had [three] children by her husband before his death in 816.

[Sharon’s Note: Not really – it makes her 23yrs old when he dies. Charlemagne’s wife Hildegard had had 9 children by the time she died at 23 or 24yrs]

However, no indication has been found in primary sources of the ages of these children when their father died. The question of her paternity is obviously not beyond doubt, but it is felt preferable to show her as the probable daughter of Emperor Louis in view of the clear statement in Flodoard. If Alpais was the daughter of Emperor Louis, it is likely that she was not her husband's only wife in view of his estimated birth date. After her husband died, she became abbess of Saint-Pierre-le-Bas at Reims in [817]. She was still there 29 May 852.

Bego & his [second] wife had three children:
i) LIUTHARD . Flodoard names "ipsius Alpheidis vel filiorum eius Letardi et Ebrardi" when recording their mother's donation to the church of Reims[70].
ii) EBERHARD . Flodoard names "ipsius Alpheidis vel filiorum eius Letardi et Ebrardi" when recording their mother's donation to the church of Reims[71].
iii) SUSANNA ([805/10]-). The primary source which establishes that Susanna was the daughter of Bego has not so far been identified. "Vulfardus" donated property to Saint-Benoît-sur-Loire for the souls of "genitoris mei Vulfardi et genetrice mea Susannane necnon et germanorum fratrum meorum Adelardo, Vulgrino, Ymo et sorore mee Hildeburga vel nepote meo Vulgrino" by charter dated 2 Nov 889[72]. m ([825/30]) VULFHARD, son of ---.

6/29/2012 at 1:58 AM

Jan 2011 STATUS OF DEBATE by Justin Durand, Pam Wilson (on hiatus), Private User, Sharon Doubell:

The 10th Century chronicler, Flodoard is a primary source, while both Cawley and Settipani are secondary sources - presenting conflicting conclusions. Settipani (arguing for Charlemagne's daughter), contradicts Flodoard (arguing for Louis' daughter), based on consideration of other primary sources (which we haven't found). Cawley appears to be most likely to dominate because, although Settipani's conclusions are possibly more accurate, Cawley is more available to Geni users on the net.


6/29/2012 at 1:58 AM

June 2012 STATUS OF DEBATE by Justin Durand, Sharon Doubell; George J. Homs:

Over the past year, despite being locked, the profiles have been merged into each other - suggesting this was not a workable strategy. George J. Homs IS WORKING ON AN ALTERNATIVE STRATEGY:

6/29/2012 at 6:34 AM

The Henry Projects says:

Alpaïs, filia imperatoris, d. after 29 May 852, on a 23 September,
m. Bego, d. 816, count of Paris.
["Picco, primus de amicis regis, qui et filiam imperatoris [nomine Elpheid] duxit uxorem, defunctus est." Annales Laurissenses Minores, s.a. 816, MGH SS 1: 122; see also Werner (1967), 429-441; "... Quod monasterium Ludowicus imperator Alpheidi, filiae suae, uxori Begonis comitis, dono dedit, ..." Flodoard, iv, 46, MGH SS 13: 595] Although it is clear that the imperator who was the father of Alpaïs was either Charlemagne or Louis the Pious, there is no general agreement as to which man was her father. While the testimony of Flodoard would make Louis the father, Flodoard was writing a century later, and the chronology is a factor for making her a daughter of Charlemagne instead. [See the discussion by Settipani (1993), 200-3]


The reference is to Christian Settipani, La préhistoire des Capétiens.

6/30/2012 at 5:27 AM

Thanks, Justin I add that to the Charlemagne project

6/30/2012 at 5:30 AM

I mean addED! :-)

3/18/2017 at 6:07 PM

""Count Begue/Beggo/ Begon has 2 (or 3) equally likely wives according to original sources – but only one set of descendents (Luithard, Eberhard, Susanna):""" NOT TRUE at all

Beggo (died 28 October 816) was the son of Gerard I of Paris and Rotrude, daughter of Carloman, son of Charles Martel. He was appointed Count of Toulouse, Duke of Septimania, Duke of Aquitaine, and Margrave of the Hispanic March in 806 and followed his father as Count of Paris in 815.

In 806, William of Gellone abdicated and Charlemagne appointed Beggo to take his place in Toulouse and the March of Gothia. He did not succeed his father in Paris, but was later placed in the comital office there, but did not live long after that.

He married either Amaudru, illegitimate daughter of Charlemagne or her niece, Alpais or Alpheidis, illegitimate daughter of Louis the Pious. Their children were:
Leuthard II, who later ruled Paris
Susanna, whose son was Adalhard, eighth Count of Paris
Engeltrude, whose son was Eberhard of Friuli

3/18/2017 at 6:12 PM


The Count of Toulouse was the ruler of Toulouse during the 8th to 13th centuries. Originating as vassals of the Frankish kings,[1] the hereditary counts ruled the city of Toulouse and its surrounding county from the late 9th century until 1270. The counts and other family members were also at various times counts of Quercy, Rouergue, Albi, and Nîmes, and sometimes margraves (military defenders of the Holy Roman Empire) of Septimania and Provence. Count Raymond IV founded the Crusader state of Tripoli, and his descendants were also counts there.[2] They reached the zenith of their power during the 11th and 12th centuries, but after the Albigensian Crusade the county fell to the kingdom of France, nominally in 1229 and de facto in 1271.

Contents [hide]
1 History 1.1 Carolingian era
1.2 High Middle Ages
1.3 Within the kingdom of France

2 List of counts of Toulouse 2.1 Carolingian era
2.2 House of Rouergue

3 See also
4 Notes


Carolingian era[edit]

Main article: History of Toulouse § 768–877: Carolingian Franks and the Kingdom of Aquitaine

During the youth of young Louis, his tutor, Torson (sometimes Chorso or Choson), ruled at Toulouse as the first count. In 788, Count Torson was captured by the Basques under Adalric, who made him swear an oath of allegiance to the Duke of Gascony, Lupus II. Upon his release, Charlemagne, at the Council of Worms (790), replaced him with his Frankish cousin, William of Gellone. William in turn successfully subdued the Gascons.

In the ninth century, Toulouse suffered in common with the rest of western Europe. It was besieged by Charles the Bald in 844, and taken four years later by the Normans, who had sailed up the Garonne. About 852, Raymond I, count of Quercy, succeeded his brother Fredelo as Count of Rouergue and Toulouse. It is from Raymond that all the later counts of Toulouse document their descent. His grandchildren divided their parents' estates; of these Raymond II became count of Toulouse, and Ermengol, count of Rouergue; while the hereditary titles of Septimania, Quercy and Albi were shared between them.

Raymond II's grandson, William III (known as the first William Taillefer), married Emma of Provence, and handed down part of that lordship to his younger son Bertrand I of Forcalquier.[3]

William's elder son, Pons, left two children, one of whom, William IV succeeded his father in Toulouse, Albi and Quercy; while the younger, Raymond IV, ruled the vast possessions of the counts of Rouergue.

High Middle Ages[edit]

Coat of arms of the counts of Toulouse in the 13th century[4]
From this time on, the counts of Toulouse were powerful lords in southern France. Raymond IV, assumed the formal titles of Marquis of Provence, Duke of Narbonne and Count of Toulouse. Afterward, the count set sail with the First Crusade. After the conquest of Jerusalem, he set siege to the City of Tripoli in the Levant. Raymond died before the city was taken in 1109, but is considered the first Count of Tripoli. His son, Bertrand, then took the title. He and his successors ruled the Crusader state until 1187 (when the Kingdom of Jerusalem was overrun by Saladin).[5]

While Raymond was away in the Holy Land, rule of Toulouse was seized by William IX, Duke of Aquitaine, who claimed the city by right of his wife, Philippa, the daughter of William IV; William was unable to hold it long. Raymond's son and successor, Bertrand, had followed him to the Holy Land in 1109. Therefore, at Raymond's death the family's great estates and Toulouse went to Bertrand's brother, Alfonso Jordan. His rule, however, was disturbed by the ambition of William IX and his granddaughter, Eleanor of Aquitaine, who urged her husband Louis VII of France to support her claims to Toulouse by war. Upon her divorce from Louis and her subsequent marriage to Henry II of England, Eleanor pressed her claims through Henry, who at last, in 1173, forced Raymond V to do him homage for Toulouse.

Raymond V, a patron of the troubadours, died in 1194, and was succeeded by his son, Raymond VI. Following the 1208 assassination of the Papal legate, Pierre de Castelnau, Raymond was excommunicated and the County of Toulouse was placed under interdict by Pope Innocent III. Raymond was eager to appease the Pope, and was pardoned. However, following a second excommunication, Raymond's holdings in the Languedoc were desolated by the Albigensian Crusade, led by Simon de Montfort. Raymond's forces were defeated in 1213, depriving him of his fees,[5] and he was exiled to England. Montfort finally occupied Toulouse in 1215.

Raymond VII succeeded his father in 1222. He left an only daughter, Joan, who married Alphonse, the son of Louis VIII of France and brother of Louis IX of France. At the deaths of Alfonse and Joan in 1271, the vast holdings of the counts of Toulouse lapsed to the Crown.

Political map of the Languedoc under rule of the House of Toulouse on the eve of the Albigensian Crusade

The French region in 1154
Within the kingdom of France[edit]

In 1271,Toulouse passed to the Crown of France, by the Treaty of Meaux, 1229. From 1271–1285, Philip III of France, King of France and nephew of Alphonse bore the title of count of Toulouse, but the mention of the title is abandoned after his death.

Only in 1681, Toulouse was resurrected as a royal appanage by Louis XIV for his illegitimate son with Françoise-Athénaïs, marquise de Montespan, Louis-Alexandre

List of counts of Toulouse[edit]

Carolingian era[edit]
778–790 Torson, first Count of Toulouse; deposed by Charlemagne
790–806 William of Gellone
806–816 Beggo 811–818 Raimond Rafinel (811–818), his relation to the preceding and succeeding counts is unknown

816–835 Berengar
835–842 Bernard of Septimania 842–843 Acfred by conquest

844–849 William of Septimania, successfully opposed Fredelon

House of Rouergue[edit]

House of Toulouse:
844–852 Fredelon
852–863 Raymond I 863–865 Humfrid, deposed Raymond and count by conquest
863–865 Sunyer, appointed to oppose Humfrid

865–877 Bernard II
877–886 Bernard III Plantapilosa
886–918 Odo
918–924 Raymond II
924–ca.950 Raymond III Pons
Note: It had long been thought that Raymond III Pons was succeeded directly by William III. However, recent research suggests there were at least one, and as many as three, previously overlooked counts; and that at least one of these three was named Raymond. This has resulted in conflicting numbering systems regarding the later Raymonds, although most historians continue to use the established, traditional numbering for them.ca.950–ca.961 Raymond (IV)
ca.961–ca.972 Hugh
ca.972–ca.978 Raymond (V)

978–1037 William III Taillefer
1037–1061 Pons
1061–1094 William IV
1094–1105 Raymond IV (VI) of St Gilles, inherit the County as Philippa, the daughter of William IV, was barred from inheriting it by Pons's will. 1098–1101 Philippa (married to William IX of Aquitaine); exploiting the departure of Raymond for the First Crusade, the powerful husband of Philippa claimed Toulouse for her in 1098

1105–1109 Bertrand of Tripoli; Toulouse was mortgaged to Bertrand, a cousin of Philippa. Thereafter the county was vested to Bertrand's heirs 1109–1117 Philippa and William IX of Aquitaine, again
1117–1120 William X of Aquitaine, son of William IX and Philippa

1109–1148 Alfonso Jordan
1148–1194 Raymond V (VII)
1194–1222 Raymond VI (VIII) 1215–1218 Simon IV de Montfort, count by conquest during the Albigensian Crusade
1218–1224 Amaury VI de Montfort, son of Simon

1222–1249 Raymond VII (IX) re-established
1249–1271 Joan and Alphonse, Count of Poitiers, her husband 1271 Philippa de Lomagne (great-granddaughter of Constance of Toulouse, daughter of Raymond VI)[6] tries unsuccessfully to claim the inheritance of the county.

Note: Counts not issued from the House of Rouergue aren't bolded above.

See also[edit]
History of Toulouse
Timeline of Toulouse


1.Jump up ^ L. Ariste and L. Brand, Histoire populaire de Toulouse depuis les origines jusqu'à ce jour (Toulouse, 1898).
2.Jump up ^ "The Counts of Toulouse (Coms de Toloza)". Midi-france.info. Retrieved 2012-11-05.
3.Jump up ^ Note:About 975 there had been a partition of the estates which the second William Taillefer and his cousin, Raymond II of Auvergne, held in common. Albi and Quercy, went to William; Gothia, to Raymond.
4.Jump up ^ The first known Cross of Toulouse is shown on Count Raimond VI's seal, dated from 1211. Then widely used all over Languedoc, the Cross of Toulouse appeared on the municipal arms of Toulouse and the provincial arms of Languedoc in the 14th century. Pierre Saliès (Archistra, December 1994) claims that the Cross of Toulouse is a modification of the Latin Cross, attributed to Count Raimond VI. In 1099, Raimond VI took part to the reconquest of Jerusalem with the Crusaders. As a Crusaders' chief, Raimond would have adapted a cross slightly different from the Latin Cross bore by the low-rank Crusaders. According to this theory, the edges of the arms of the cross were cut into two pieces and curved. To be fixed on a shield, such a cross required twelve rivets. The design would have progressively evolved towards the Cross of Toulouse. (Ivan Sache, 24 April 2003, crwflags.com)
5.^ Jump up to: a b "Flanders, Brittany, Burgundy, Anjou, Normandy, Blois, Champagne, Toulouse, etc". Friesian.com. Retrieved 2012-10-17.
6.Jump up ^ Family Tree in Roglo.eu [retrieved 3 September 2014].

Public Domain This article incorporates text from a publication now in the public domain: Chisholm, Hugh, ed. (1911). "article name needed". Encyclopædia Britannica (11th ed.). Cambridge University Press. .

3/18/2017 at 6:23 PM


from that site

"""The name of Begon's first wife is not known. Alpais (?-855) is often listed as his second wife, but that would imply that Louis the Pious (778-840) was a grandfather at the age of 28. It is known though that Charlemagne (747-814)'s daughter Amaudru (?-?) married "a count of Paris". This cannot have been any of Begon's sons, while his father Gerard I de Paris (?-779) was probably too old. Of course, Amaudru could have married one of Begon's brothers but Begon is clearly the most powerful of the three while Etienne de Paris (c754-c813) was probably not married and Leuthard I de Paris (?-813) was married to Grimhilde. On the other hand, Amaudru was probably too old to be the grandmother of Landrade's son, so we here opt for Alpaide, a younger daughter of Charlemagne"""

3/18/2017 at 9:53 PM

I'll take a look when I get onto my computer later today.

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