Paul Maree / De Mare De Salgas - WARNING: AT RISK PROFILE LINE

Started by Sharon Lee Doubell on Monday, July 9, 2012


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7/9/2012 at 4:34 AM

Please be very careful with changes and merges you make on this family line, which intermarries and creates MANY SAME NAME/ DIFFERENT PEOPLE that are tempting to collate, creating horrible incestuous tangles that take weeks to undo.

First, Note that the Mare's are not the Marais', so the addition of Charles Marais as a father of one of Paul Mare's children is erroneous, and the Catherina Marais involved here appears to often acquire all the life details of Catherina Mare, making it appear a logical merge until the tree gives her two different fathers!

7/9/2012 at 4:34 AM

Second, Problems seems to occur with GENI merges in the Mare family because: there are two Ignace Mares, and two Catherina Mares. In each case, the elder had a portrait painted of them, as did their father, Paul Mare. Merge confusions seem to occur most often over conflating the elder Catherina Mare with her name-sake niece, Catherina Mare, who then also became her daughter-in-law (with the effect that they both become Catherina Van Vuuren on marriage.)

7/9/2012 at 4:35 AM

Therefore, I think it should look like this (if we remove extra siblings)

A) Paul Maré marries NN
-A1) Ignatius Maré, SV/PROG (1684)
-A2) Catharina Maré, PROG (1692)

B) Gerrit Jantz van Vuren, SV/PROG (1667) marries Suzanne Jacobs, b4 SM (1671)
-B1) Susanna Janse van Vuren, b1 SM (1691)
-B2) Johannes Jansen van Vuuren, b2 (1694)

-A1 m B1) In 1706 Ignatius Maré, SV/PROG (1684) marries Susanna Janse van Vuren, b1 SM (1691)
--C1) Ignatius Maré (1729)
--C2) Francina Maré (1718) (apparently named after her aunt)

-A2 m B2) In 1713 Catharina Maré, PROG (1692) marries Johannes Jansen van Vuuren, b2 (1694 )
--D1) Gerrit Janse van Vuuren (1716) (apparently named for his grandfather)
--D2) Susanna Janse van Vuuren (1732)

--C2 m D1) In 1738: Francina Maré (1718) marries her cousin , Gerrit Janse van Vuuren (1716)

7/9/2012 at 4:39 AM

I've been forced to lock lots of these, otherwise they get mis-merged on a weekly basis :-) I really hate doing that, but in this case it's a full-time job fixing it the whole time.

So please just contact me if you want to add more info onto the profile, or if you have more info that challenges the above.
Let's get it right together :-)

7/10/2012 at 2:26 AM

See related Discussion about whether these Ignace i & Catherina i are brother & sister or father & daughter.

7/28/2012 at 2:09 AM

Jansi Syfert has contacted me about this issue. (Yaaay, finally someone wants to talk about this one :-) )
She provides details to follow up in research, so it seemed useful to put them here too - so everyone else can follow our discussion, OR JUMP IN & HELP US, as we untangle the best version to put on these profiles:

"Dear Sharon,

I am contacting you about this profile: Francina Maré

The daughter of Ignace Mare baptised in 1718 was called Franciskelle: 'Anno 1718; Den 27ste Nov: Franciskelle, doghter van Ignatius Marre en van Sùsanna Janse Van Feure. Getuijgen de ouders selfs.'

She married Pieter du Plessis: '17 April [1745]. Pieter du Plessies van Cabo de Goede Hoop Burger aan Drakensteijn Wedu. En Francina Marais van Cabo voornoemd Jonge Dogter.'


I don't find another Catharina Mare, except the one who married Jan Janse van Vuuren, amongst Ignace's children.

Their first child was baptised 9 Feb 1716: 'Anno 1716; Den 9de Febr; Gerrit, soon van Jan Janse van Veùren en Catharina Marai. Getùijgen Sùsanna Janse Van Veùren en Ignatius Marai.'

This Catharina Mare must then have been born at least about 1696 or 1697 or earlier, which accords with the sister/daughter of Ignace Catharina Mare born 1692.

I think there was only the one Catharina Mare.

Why do you think there were two?

Jansi Syfert"

7/30/2012 at 8:09 AM

OK, I have to Follow this step by step, Sorry if it looks painstakingly slow:

Jansi Syfert says "I don't find another Catharina Mare, except the one who married Jan Janse van Vuuren, amongst Ignace's children"

-I think the other Catherina Mare you are looking for is the one who marries "Gerrit, soon van Jan Janse van Veùren en Catharina Marai"

Let me go and search out the source for that.

(PS We need to add these sources from the 1st 50 Yrs project to all these profiles too. Please come and help do that)

7/30/2012 at 8:35 AM

Hmm, so far the only source for Gerrit marrying Catherina is ancestry, and no good validation for it:

I've started a Discussion asking Private User if she has sources, or for their daughter.

8/2/2012 at 12:37 AM

Hi Sharon, I'm following what you are doing and will wait for clarification before changing my records. Good job opening this up.

The SAG has a number of mistakes in the Van Vuuren register. From what I can see it appears that Daniel and Andries Van Vuuren [both married Viljoens] are incorrectly placed as the children of Johannes Van Vuuren & Catherine Maree when they belong under Johannes Van Vuuren & Johanna Oelofse.

Gerrit Van Vuuren is placed as the younger brother of Daniel and Andries with the SAG having Gerrit Van Vuuren as the husband of Catherine Maree. It is also a good idea to confirm Gerrit Van Vuuren's parentage as it is quite possible that Johannes Van Vuuren son of Gerrit Jansz may have been documented as Gerrit Van Vuuren, when in actual fact they are the same individual with the possible full name of Johannes Gerritsz Van Vuuren [x Chaterine Maree]. Just a thought

Private User
8/2/2012 at 1:33 AM

Alexander Armenis (Alex) please could you add that information about the van Vuurens to the ~Irregularities project?

It would be good to support the information with documents if you can get your hands on them?

8/2/2012 at 2:04 AM

Okay - that's really getting somewhere, Alexander Ace Researcher. Let's wait for Judi to weigh in too, but please remind me if I forget that we're in the middle of this. (I'm going on a Viking Invasion Cruise in a week's time - so am busy on the Orkney/ Scots families right now.)

8/27/2012 at 6:40 AM

Alex and June (if her work on her book leaves her available?) can you weigh in on this discussion about taking action on this?

11/23/2012 at 12:55 AM

I've had a message from Jansi Syfert asking us to move on this:

Hi Sharon
I've had a look at the discussion on this question and also the other discussions around Ignace Mare.

It appears that no-one had any objection to this Catherina being, in fact, Francina, b 1718.

Please unlock the profile for me to update her? I'll also upload the source documents.

And the other Catharina, Catharina the elder should be merged with the eldest daughter of Ignace - that also appeared to be acceptable to all.

And in this case a discussion about alternative data after merges is a definite must!
Jansi Syfert
Today at 7:16 AM

Alexander Armenis (Alex) and Private User and Private User can you weigh in here?

Unless there are objections, I suggest we go forward with this tomorrow morning.

Private User
11/23/2012 at 1:00 AM

Looks like it should go ahead - there has been enough time lapsed on this!

11/23/2012 at 1:02 AM

Please see this discussion too:

11/23/2012 at 4:54 AM

I'm in agreement as things stand. If new info arises then we can review the decision but for now I say we should go ahead.

11/24/2012 at 8:52 AM

Having changed her from being Catherina the Younger to Francina Mare - who married Pieter du Plessis, b1c1,
we still have the problem of ‘divorcing’ her from Gerrit Janse van Vuuren (easy), while deciding WHO GETS THE CHILDREN (harder)


11/24/2012 at 10:32 AM

Jansi Syfert, do you want to continue with it?

11/25/2012 at 6:13 AM

I'll upload the source documents that I have. I've ordered her will - will upload as soon as I receive it.

11/25/2012 at 6:50 AM

Damn fantastic! You go girl!

11/25/2012 at 9:22 AM

Revised Version looks like this: (if we remove extra siblings) Best viewed on Maré Project [] with indents:

A) Paul Mare marries NN

B1) Ignace Mare i (c1670)

marries first NN

C1) Catherina Mare (c 1690)

marries in 1713 Johannes Janse Van Vuuren i (1694 )

D1) Gerrit Janse van Vuuren (c 1716)

D2) Anna Elisabeth Janse vanVuuren (c 1718 - c 1727)

D3) Johannes Janse van Vuuren (c 1721)

D4) Lucas Janse van Vuuren (c1724)

D5) Anna Elisabeth Janse van Vuuren (c1727)

D6) Susanna Janse van Vuuren (c 1732)

C2) Ignatius Mare ii (c1690 - c1728)

marries second in 1706 Suzanne Janszoon van Vuren i (1691)

C1) Johannes Mare (c 1708)

C2) Anna Elisabeth Mare (c 17110

C3) Susanna Mare (c 1713)

C4) Lucas Marthinus Mare (c 1716)

C5) Francina Mare (c 1718)

C6) Maria Maree (c 1721)

C7) Paulus Ignatius Mare (c 1724)

C8) Magdalena Fenesie Mare (c 1726)

C9) Ignatius Mare iii (c 1729)


A) Gerrit Janszoon van Vuren i (1667) marries Suzanne Jacob (1671)

B1) Suzanne Janszoon van Vuren i (1691)

marries in 1706 Ignace Mare i (c1670)

C1) Johannes Mare (c 1708)

C2) Anna Elisabeth Mare (c 17110

C3) Susanna Mare (c 1713)

C4) Lucas Marthinus Mare (c 1716)

C5) Francina Mare (c 1718)

C6) Maria Maree (c 1721)

C7) Paulus Ignatius Mare (c 1724)

C8) Magdalena Fenesie Mare (c 1726)

C9) Ignatius Mare iii (c 1729)

B2) Johannes Janse Van Vuuren i (1694)

marries in 1713 Catherina Mare i (1692)

C1) Gerrit Janse van Vuuren (c 1716)

C2) Anna Elisabeth Janse vanVuuren (c 1718 - c 1727)

C3) Johannes Janse van Vuuren (c 1721)

C4) Lucas Janse van Vuuren (c 1724)

C5) Anna Elisabeth Janse van Vuuren (c 1727)

C6) Susanna Janse van Vuuren (c 1732)

11/25/2012 at 9:54 AM

Please see: for summary of all these Discussions so far.

1/1/2016 at 12:32 PM

Paul Maré, Private User, Alexander Armenis (Alex), Sharon Lee Doubell,Private User

Voorspoedige 2016

Ek het vasgestel dat Catharina MAREE (1692) die direkte lyn voormoeder van my vrou se paternale lyn is. M.a.w. my skoonpa se mtDNA. Hy is al oorlede, maar miskien kan mens sy suster oortuig om 'n mtDNA toets te doen.



1/2/2016 at 2:32 AM

Jaco, I'm thinking you are the closest person to her to ask :-)

Private User
2/2/2016 at 11:04 PM

Voorspoed vir jou ook Jaco. Ja ek dink ook jy is die een om te vra. Jy weet in elk geval meer van die dinge as ek. Daaroor is ek dood eerlik.

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