Aoidh (Ethelred) Heth (MacEth), EARL OF MORAY - Could Ethelred have been the husband of Lulach's daughter?

Started by Sharon Doubell on Saturday, August 11, 2012


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8/11/2012 at 5:12 AM

As to the status of
Unknown Profile (aka Ethelred, Malcolm's son) as the unnamed husband of Lulach's daughter, according to the following info on the profile:

“Earl of Moray -------------------- "The Book of McKee," pg 271 - pedigree from William Skene, D.C.L., LL.D., Historiographer-Royal of Scotland, in "Celtic Scotland," Edinburgh 1890; this shows the history of Scotland as being the Irish Kings; also from "The Mackays of Strathnaver," pg 305a (also in Book of McKee); "The Family of Alexander McCoy 929.273 M137mce states: The fourth [son] was Ethelred who was appointed by his father to be the abbot of Dunkeld, hence also the Primate of the Scottish Catholic Church founded by St. Columba in the 6th century A.D...Elthelred did [marry] so; his wife was the daughter of Lulach, a halfbreed Lord of Moray in extreme northern Scotland. His Saxon name, Ethelred, was unacceptable in the Highlands so he shortened it to Eth which was pronounced very much like the Celtic Aodha. Ethelred's grandson, one Iye MacEth, became the first chief of Clan MacKay. The clan was named for him and one should expect it to be MacIye. In fact it is for the only acceptable pronunciation of MacKay in Scotland is MacKie, like Pie or Iye."

Now the motives of this 1890 pedigree might be less than objective, but the dates and info possibly fit:

Lulach’s daughter must be born before 1059 (Lulach dies March 1058)
Ethelred born 1071 – 1097

We do know that The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, s.a. 1078, reports that "In this year Máel Coluim seized the mother of Máel Snechtai [Lulach’s son] ...and all his treasures, and his cattle; and he himself escaped [only] with difficulty."

So it is possible that Lulach’s daughter (despite being 12 or so years older than Ethelred) might have married him, if she was seized with her mother and taken to Malcolm’s court.

8/11/2012 at 5:23 AM

Sources for Ethelred, son of Malcolm:
1) '''[Ethelred, Abbot of Dunkeld ETHELRED] (-before [1107], bur [St Andrew´s Church, Kilremont]).''' He is named, and his parentage given, by Roger of Hoveden, who lists him fifth of the sons[392]. The Chronicle of John of Fordun names "Edward, Edmund, Ethelred, Edgar, Alexander and…David" as the sons of King Malcolm and his wife, adding in a later passage that Ethelred "as some assert…lies buried in St Andrew´s church at Kilremont"[393]. Lay abbot of Dunkeld. "Edelradus…filius Malcolmi Regis Scotiæ Abbas de Dunkeldense et insuper Comes de Fyf" made donations to the Keledei of Loch Leven by undated charter, witnessed by "duo fratres Hedelradi…David et Alexander…Constantini comitis de Fyf et Nesse et Cormac filii Macbeath et Malnethte filii Beollani sacerdotum de Abyrnethyn et Mallebride alterius sacerdotis"[394]. [ Cawley’s Medlands]

2) Wikipedia discusses that he is often mistaken for the Mormaer of Fife:

Ethelred (Edelred mac Maíl Coluim or Æþelræd Margotsson) was the son of King Máel Coluim III and his wife Margaret, the third oldest of the latter and the probable sixth oldest of the former. He took his name, almost certainly, from Margaret's great-grandfather King Æþelræd Unræd, or Ethelred the Unready. Ethelred had a multicultural upbringing in the pious household of his Gaelic father and Anglo-Hungarian mother. He had an ecclesiastical career and avoided a political career, perhaps because of some disability, being passed over for the succession. His career probably brought him the prestigious abbacy of Dunkeld, however he died as a cluniac monk in Somerset. He is often thought to have held the office Mormaer of Fife, but this is almost certainly a mistake. The source is a notitia of a grant to the Céli Dé monks of Loch Leven, contained within the Register of the Priory of St Andrews, which says:

Edelradus vir venerandae memoriae filius Malcolmi Regis Scotiae, Abbas de Dunkeldense et insuper Comes de Fyf.

Translated, this is "Ethelred" or "Edelred, man of venerable memory, son of King Máel Coluim of Scotland, Abbot of Dunkeld and also Mormaer of Fife". However, the same notitia records a number of witnesses, among whom are the brothers of Ethelred, David and Alexander; after the last two comes Constantinus Comes de Fyf, i.e. Causantín, the actual Mormaer of Fife. The contradiction has been explained by Bannerman. He argues that the translator of Register of the Priory of St Andrews (a collection of Latin translations of earlier Gaelic documents) had been thrown off by the use of a singular Gaelic verb for a joint grant (i.e. where the verb had two subjects), common in Gaelic charters. As a result, the translator omitted the Mormaer. At any rate, it is clear that Ethelred was never a Mormaer of Fife, since Causantín is attested in other sources.

11/8/2012 at 10:03 AM

There being no comment, I have merged the two profiles into one

11/8/2012 at 10:38 AM

The Reverend Angus MacKay, in 'The Book of MacKay', has this to say about Aedh:

The next Earl* of Moray was Aed, who married the daughter of Lulach. Little is known of Aed. He is identified as the Earl Aed who witnessed charters by King David I, son of Malcolm III. Whatever he may have been during the chequered years which immediately followed the death of Canmore [in 1093] the fact that he witnessed royal charters later on may indicate that he lived at peace with King David. He also appears to have become Earl of Moray in virtue of his marriage with Lulach's daughter, and may have sprung from a collateral noble family of Moray.14

Rev. MacKay's speculation in this last sentence is borne out by Burke's Guide to the Royal Family, which has the following entry for the issue of Lulach: "A dau[ghter], m[arried] Aedh (or Heth), Mormaer of Moray in 1078, possibly great-grandson of Donald, yst [youngest] son of Ruadri, Mormaer of Moray." 15 In the lack of contrary evidence, Table 3 shows Aedh as the great-grandson of Donald. Aedh became mormaer, or Earl, in 1078, when Maelsnectan was expelled; in that same year he married the daughter of Lulach, who was Maelsnectan's sister. If he signed charters of David I, then Aedh must have remained Earl until after 1124.

Aedh had three children: two sons, Angus and Malcolm, and a daughter, Gruaidh. Angus was Earl of Moray after his father. He revived the Moray claim to the throne, and raised an army against King David I in the year 1130. At the time, the king was absent at the English court, and the safety of the kingdom was in the hands of his constable, Edward, the son of Earl Siward. Battle was joined at Stracathro in Forfarshire, and the Moraymen were defeated by the royal army. Angus, the Earl, was slain, along with 4000 of his men. The title passed to his brother, Malcolm, who carried on with the struggle.

11/8/2012 at 10:44 AM

So, The Book of McKee has Lulach's daughter marrying Malcolm Canmore's son - Ethelred, Lay Abott of Dunkeld - & tells us the Scots called him Aed (said 'Eth')

& the Book of MacKay has Lulach's daughter marrying Ruardri's descendent - Aed, Mormaer of Moray.

11/8/2012 at 11:11 AM

We're told this Aed witnessed David I's charters.
- We don't know whether he did it as David's brother in Dunkeld, or only as David's ally in Moray.

We know that his son (or more precisely, Lulach's grandson), Angus, was Earl of Moray (through his mother, and having succeeded his uncle (her brother) Maelsnectan, when he was expelled by Malcolm in 1078.) and he rose up against David I.

But we also know from the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, s.a. 1078, reports that "In this year Máel Coluim seized the mother of Máel Snechtai ...and all his treasures, and his cattle; and he himself escaped [only] with difficulty."

- So, is it more likely that
a) MaeColuim seized Mael Snechtai's sister along with his mother, and married her to his son, Ethelred, the Lay Abbot of Dunkeld to ensure the Moray descendents were his grandsons in the future?
b) MaeColuim left Mael Snechtai's sister behind; and another Ruardri descendent stepped up to marry her as the remaining heir to Moray?

Our best hope of an answer may lie in analysing Aed's friendly behaviour to David I, and Angus's subsequent hostility to David I.

3/4/2013 at 10:44 PM

Some info about Lulach and co

The early Scottish Monarchs

Kenneth I (r. 843-858)

Donald I (r. 858-862)

Constantine I (r. 862-877)

Aed (r. 877-878)

Giric (r. 878-889)

Donald II (r. 889-900)

Constantine II (r. 900-943)

Malcolm I (r.943-954)

Indulf (r. 954-962)

Dubh or Duff (r. 962-966)

Culen (r. 966-971)

Kenneth II (r. 971-995)

Constantine III (r. 995-997)

Kenneth III (r. 971-997)

Malcolm II (r. 1005-1034)

Duncan I (r. 1034-1040)

Macbeth (r. 1040-1057)

Lulach (r. 1057-1058)

Malcolm III (r. 1058-1093)

Donald III (r. 1093-1094, 1094-1097)

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HomeHistory of the MonarchyScottish Monarchs (400 AD - 1603)The early Scottish MonarchsLulach (r. 1057-1058)

ulach (r. 1057-1058)

3/4/2013 at 10:45 PM

Lulach, Macbeth's stepson, was born about 1032, the son of Gruoch by her first husband, Gillacomgan, Mormaer of Moray.

He was briefly recognised as king but was killed by Malcolm Canmore at Essie, Aberdeenshire on 17 March 1058.

3/4/2013 at 11:09 PM

This is the link to The Official Website of the British Monarchy. A great site if you have not visited it with a good section on Early Scotland etc

3/5/2013 at 12:57 AM


3/6/2013 at 4:17 AM

The House of Dunkeld

Crinan "the Thane", Mormaer of Atholl, Abthane of Dule, Steward of the Western Isles & Lay Abbot of Dunkeld, *ca 975, +k.a.Tayside by Macbeth 1045; 1000 Bethoc, Lady of Atholl (*ca 984, +after 1018); They had issue:
A1. Duncan I "the Gracious" (Donnchadh I), King of Strathclyde (1018-34), King of Scotland (1034-40), *ca 1001, +k.a.Bothganowan (now Pitgaveny), nr Elgin 14.8.1040, bur Isle of Iona; 1030 Sibylla (+after 1040), dau.of Bjorn Bearsson of Northumbria
B1. Malcolm III Canmore, King of Strathclyde (1034-40), King of Scotland (1058-93) -cr 25.4.1058 Scone Abbey, *ca 1031, Alnwick, Northumberland 13.11.1093, bur Dunfermline Abbey, Fife; 1m: ca 1059 Ingiborg Finnsdotter (+before 1070), dau.of Finn Arnarsson of Vjar, Jarl of Halland; 2m: Dunfermline Abbey ca 1069 St.Margaret of England (*ca 1045, +16.11.1093)
C1. [1m.] Duncan II, King of Scotland (1094), *ca 1060, +k.a.Monthecin 12.11.1094, bur Dunfermline Abbey, Fife; 1090/94 Ethelreda (+after 1094), dau.of Gospatrick, Earl of Northumbria
D1. William FitzDuncan, Lord of Skipton and Craven (in right of wife), *ca 1092/94, +1154; 1138 Alice le Meschin, dau.of William le Meschin, Lord of Copeland
E1. William MacWilliam, Lord of Egremont, *ca 1039, +drowned at Bolton Wharf after 1155; 1m: Gruaidh, dau.of Aedh, Mormaer of Moray; 2m: Octreda, dau.of Alan, Ld of Allerdale
F1. [1m.] Donald MacWilliam, +k.a.Margarnia Moor, Speyside 31.7.1187; m.NN
G1. Godfrey MacWilliam, claimant to the Scottish throne, +executed in Kincardine 1213
G2. Donald MacWilliam, +k.a.Morayshire 15.6.1215
G3. a daughter; m.N MacEwen
F2. [1m.] Gospatrick MacWilliam, Lord of Airton, +before 1208; he married and had issue (no details recorded)
E2. Cecilia FitzDuncan; m.William le Gros, 3rd Earl of Aumale (+1079)
E3. Amabel FitzDuncan; m.Reginald de Lucy (+1079)
E4. Alice FitzDuncan, +1215; 1m: Gilbert Pipard; 2m: Robert de Courtenay
E5. [illegitimate] Donald FizDuncan
C2. [1m.] Malcolm, *ca 1062, +ca 1094
C3. [1m.] Donald, +1085
C4. [2m.] Edward, *ca 1070, +k.a.Edwardisle nr Alnwick 16.11.1093, bur Dunfermline Abbey, Fife
C5. [2m.] Edmund, Prince of Cumbria, co-King of Scotland (1094-97), after being deposed in V.1097 he became a monk at Montacute Abbey, *ca 1072, +after 1100, bur Montacute Abbey
C6. [2m.] Edgar, King of Scotland (1097-1107), *ca 1074, +Edinburgh Castle 8.1.1107, bur Dunfermline Abbey, Fife
C7. [2m.] Alexander I "the Fierce", King of Scotland (1107-24), *ca 1077/78, +Stirling Castle 25/27.4.1124, bur Dunfermline Abbey, Fife; 1107 Sibylla (*ca 1092, +12/13.7.1122), illegitmate dau.of Henry I, King of England
D1. [illegitimate] Malcolm MacHeth, Earl of Ross, *1105/15, +1168; m.N, a sister of Somerled, Lord of Argyll
E1. Gormlath/Hvarlod; m.Harold, Jarl of Orkney, Earl of Caithness (+1206)
C8. [2m.] David I "the Saint" (Daibhidh I), Earl of Huntingdon and Northampton, King of Scotland (1124-53), *ca 1083/84, +Carlisle, Cumbria 24.5.1153, bur Dunfermline Abbey, Fife; m.1113/14 Matilda (*ca 1074, +23.4.1130/22.4.1131, bur Scone Abbey, Perthshire), dau.of Waltheof, Earl of Huntingdon and Northampton
D1. Malcolm, *1114, +young
D2. Henry, Earl of Huntingdon and Northumberland, *1115, +12.6.1152, bur Kelso Abbey, Roxburghshire; m.1139 Ada de Warenne (*ca 1120, +1178)
E1. Malcolm IV "the Maiden" (Maolchamuin IV), King of Scotland (1153-65), *20.3.1141, +Jedburgh Castle of starvation 9.12.1165, bur Dunfermline Abbey, Fife
E2. William I "the Lion", Earl of Northumberland (1152-57), King of Scotland (1165-1214) -cr 24.12.1165, Scone Abbey, *1143, +Stirling Castle 4.12.1214, bur Arbroath Abbey; m.Woodstock Palace 5.9.1186 Ermengarde Beaumont (*ca 1170, +11.2.1233/34, bur Balmerino Abbey, Fife), dau.of Richard, Vicomte de Beaumont-le-Maine
F1. Alexander II, King of Scotland (1214-49), *Haddington, East Lothian 24.8.1198, +Isle of Kerrara in the Bay of Oban of a fever 6.7.1249, bur Melrose Abbey, Roxburghshire; 1m: York Minster 15/25.6.1221 Joanna of England (*22.7.1210, +5.3.1238); 2m: Roxburgh 15.5.1239 Marie de Coucy (*ca 1220/25, +after 6.6.1257)
G1. [2m.] Alexander III "the Glorious" (Alasdair), King of Scotland (1249-1286) -cr 13.7.1249, Scone Abbey, *Roxburgh 4.9.1241, +killed from a fall from his horse nr Kinghorn, Fife 19.3.1286, bur Dunfermline Abbey, Fife; 1m: York Minster 26.12.1251 Margaret of England (*29.9.1240, +26/27.2.1275); 2m: Jedburgh Abbey 1.11.1285 Yolande (*ca 1265, +Nantes 2.8.1322), dau.of Robert IV, Comte de Dreux et de Braine
H1. [1m.] Margaret, *Windsor Castle 28.2.1261, +in childbirth Tönsberg 9.4.1283, bur Kristkirche, Bergen; m.Bergen ca 31.8.1281 Erik II Magnusson, King of Norway (*1268 +13.7.1299)
H2. [1m.] Alexander, Prince of Scotland, *Jedburgh Abbey 21.1.1264, +Lindores Abbey 28.8.1284, bur Dunfermline Abbey, Fife; m.Roxburgh 15.11.1282 Margaret (*ca 1268/70, +1331), dau.of Guy de Dampierre, Count of Flanders
H3. [1m.] David, *20.3.1273, +Stirling Castle end of VI.1281, bur Dunfermline Abbey, Fife
G2. [illegitimate] Marjorie; m.Alan Durward, Justicar of Scotland (+after 1264)
F2. Margaret, *ca 1193, +1259, bur the Church of the Black Friars, London; m.19.6.1221 Hubert de Burgh, Earl of Kent (+1243)
F3. Isabella, *ca 1195/97, +after 1253; m.Alnwick V.1225 Roger Bigod, Earl of Norfolk (*ca 1212, +1270), she was repudiated in 1245, but reconciled to her husband in 1253
F4. Marjorie, *ca 1200, +17.11.1244, bur in the Church of the Balck Friars, London; m.Berwick-upon-Tweed 1.8.1235 Gilbert Marshal, Earl of Pembroke (+1241)
F5. [illegitimate by the dau.of Adam de Hythus] Margaret, +after 1226; m.Eustace de Vesci (*1169 +1216)
F6. [illegitimate by the dau.of Robert Avenal] Isabella; 1m: Robert IV le Brus, Lord of Annandale (+ca 1191); 2m: Robert de Ros, 1st Baron de Helmsley (+1226)
F7. [illegitimate] Robert de London
F8. [illegitimate] Henry de Galightly
F9. [illegitimate] Ada, +1200; m.Patrick, 4th Earl of Dunbar (*1152 +1232)
F10. [illegitimate] Aufrica; m.William de Say
F11-F13. [illegitimate] 3 children
E3. David, Earl of Huntingdon, Northumberland, Doncaster, Carlisle, Garioch, Cambridge and Lennox, *1144, +Yardley 17.6.1219, bur Sawtrey Abbey, Huntingdonshire; m.26.8.1190 Matilda (*1171, +6.1.1233), dau.of Hugh de Kevilloc, Earl of Chester
F1. Robert, +young, bur Lindores Abbey, Fife
F2. John "the Scot", Earl of Huntingdon and Garioch (1219-37) & Earl of Chester (1232-37), *ca 1207, +Darnal soon before 6.6.1237, bur Church of St.Werburg, Chester; m.1220/22 Helen (+1253), dau.of Llwelyn ap Iorwerth, Prince of Wales
F3. Henry, +young after 1215, bur Lindores Abbey, Fife
F4. Margaret, *ca 1194, +1228; m.1209 Alan, Lord of Galloway (+1234), whose issue sprung the senior competitors to the Scottish throne after 1286
G1. Devorguilla, *ca 1218, +28.1.1290, bur Sweetheart Abbey, Kirkland; m.1233 John de Baliol of Barnard Castle (+soon before 24.10.1268)
G2. Christina, +1246; m.William de Forz, 5th Earl of Aumale (+1241)
F5. Isabella "the Scot", *ca 1206, +1251, bur Saltre Abbey nr Stilton, Gloucestershire; m.Robert V le Brus, Lord of Annandale (+1245)
F6. Ada, *ca 1210, +after 1241; m.after 7.6.1237 Sir Henry de Hastings, Lord of Ashill & Huntingdon (+ca 1250)
G1. Henry de Hastings, 1st Baron de Hastings of Abergavenny, *ca 1240, +1269; 1260 Joan de Cantelou (+1271)
H1. John de Hastings, 2nd Baron de Hastings of Abergavenny, *6.5.1262, +10.2.1313, claimant to the Scottish throne; 1280 Isabel de Valence (+5.10.1305), dau.of William de Valence, Earl of Wexford and Pembroke
H2. Hilaria/Eleanor de Hastings; m.Sir William II d'Harcourt (*1227 +1270)
F7. Matilda, died unmarried
*** David also had the following illegitimate issue all by unknown mothers:
F8. Henry de Stirling
F9. Henry de Brechin, +1238; m.Juliana, dau.of Ralph de Cornhill; They had issue
F10. Ada; m.Malise, son of Ferteth, Earl of Strathearn
E4. Ada, *Huntingdon ca 1140-46, +after 11.1.1204; m.28.8.1162 Count Floris III of Holland (*ca 1140, +1.8.1190)
E5. Margaret, *ca 1145/46, +1201; 1m: 1159/60 Duke Conan IV of Brittany (*ca 1038, +20.2.1171), 2m: around Easter 1175 Humphrey de Bohun (+1182)
E6. Isabella; m.Robert, Baron Ros of Wark (+1174)
E7. Matilda, +young 1152
E8. [illegitimate] Margaret/Marjorie; m.John de Lindsay
D3. Claricia, +died unmarried
D4. Hodierna, +died young and unmarried
C9. [2m.] Ethelred, Lay Abbot of Dunkeld, *ca 1084, +ca 1097, bur Kilremont Church
C10. [2m.] Edith later Matilda upon her marriage, *autumn 1080, +Palace of Westminster, 1.5.1118, bur Westminster Abbey; m.Westminster Abbey 6.8./11.11.1100 King Henry I of England (*IX.1068, +1/2.12.1135)
C11. [2m.] Mary, *ca 1085, +London 31.5.1115/16, bur Abbey of St.Saviour, Bermondsey; m.1101/02 Cte Eustace III de Boulogne-sur-Mer (+after 1125)
B2. Donald III Bane (Domhnall III), Mormaer of Gowrie, co-King of Scotland (1093-94)+(1094-97), *ca 1033, +blinded and imprisoned Rescobie, Forfarshire 1099, bur Dunkeld Abbey later removed to Isle of Iona; m.NN
C1. Bethoc; m.Sir Huctred of Tynedale
D1. Hextilda; m.her cousin Malcolm, Earl of Atholl
B3. Maelmuire, *ca 1035, +unknown; m.NN
C1. Madach, Earl of Atholl (ca 1115), +ca 1152; 1m: Margaret, dau.of Haakon Paulsson; 2m: ca 1133 Margaret, dau.of Haco, Jarl of Orkney
D1. Malcolm, Earl of Atholl, +1186/98; 1m: NN; 2m: Hextilda of Tynedale
D2. Harold, Jarl of Orkney and Earl of Caithness, +1206; 1m: Aufrika, sister of Duncan, Earl of Fife; 2m: Gormlath/Hvarlod, dau.of Malcolm MacHeth, Earl of Ross
A2. Maldred, Lord of Allerdale and Regent of Strathclyde, +k.a.Morayshire 1045; m.Edith, dau.of Uhtred, Earl of Northumbria
B1. Gospatrick, Earl of Northumbria (1071-72), Earl of Dunbar (1072), *ca 1040, +Norham ca 15.12.1090/1100, bur Norham Church; m.NN
C1. Dolfin, Earl of Cumberland, +after 1092; m.NN
C2. Waltheof, 1st Baron of Allerdale, Abbot of Crowland, *ca 1060, +1138; m.Sigrid N; They had issue
C3. Gospatrick, 2nd Earl of Dunbar, *ca 1062, +k.a.Battle of the Standard 22.8.1138; m.NN; They had issue
C4. Octreda; m.Waldeve, son of Gillemin
C5. Gunhilda; m.Orm, son of Ketil
C6. Matilda; m.Dolfin, son of Aylward
C7. Ethelreda; m.1090/94 Duncan II, King of Scotland
A3. a daughter; m.NN
B1. Moddan, Earl of Caithness, +k.a.Pitgaveny 15.8.1040, claimant to the Scottish throne
A4. a daughter

Rulers of Scotland
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3/6/2013 at 4:24 AM

Whoops its a bit bigger than I thought, interesting read tho
It supports the fact Edmund and Edward being twins (Edmund is referred to as a co king

Maybe I should just put links in???

3/6/2013 at 4:36 AM

Bruce, looking good. What is the 'Rulers of Scotland' source? - an internet site?; a book? It would be helpful to know whose genealogical work we are reading above.

3/6/2013 at 4:41 AM

Added to the Medieval Scotland Scratchpad project so we can keep working on it:

3/6/2013 at 5:23 PM
3/7/2013 at 1:12 AM

Most of the answers to the questions can be found here and at a RootsWeb address which I will post later but the main advantage of Rootsweb is the nice little graphic that is included and if you are clever with graphics can be joined to gether

3/7/2013 at 4:34 AM /usbiography/monarchs/lulach.html

Lulach was the step-son of Macbeth, who he succeeded to the throne. His claim was based on the fact that his mother, Princess Gruoch, was the grand-daughter of Kenneth III. Lulach's survival into adulthood was somthing of a feat in itself. After Malcolm II had killed Kenneth III he wiped out any future competiton for the crown from that side of House of Alpin. It would seem, however, that he overlooked Lulach: possibly because of the latter's reputation as a simpleton.

But having become King of Alba at his coronation at Scone in August 1057, it was clear that Lulach's hold on power could never be strong. The alliance formed by Malcolm Canmore to overthrow Macbeth was still in place and it only took until March 1058 for Lulach to be assassinated. He was, predicably succeeded by Malcolm Canmore. Lulach's son, Maelsnectan retired to a monastery.

So died the last King of the House of Alpin, a dynasty which had started when Kenneth I had become King of the Picts and Scots to form the beginnings of Alba in 843. Lulach was also, arguably, the last King of Alba. Every monarch since Kenneth I had in effect been the King of Scotland, but those up to King Aedh would have been referred to in their own time as Kings of the Picts and Scots; and those from Donald I onwards as Kings of Alba. It was only with the replacement of the House of Alpin with the House of Dunkeld that the occupant of the throne would be referred to in his own time as the King of Scotland.

12/5/2015 at 5:55 AM
Private User
12/5/2015 at 5:00 PM

I think the short answer to the question is "Heck No!" :-D

Beware of Occam's Razor, it sometimes shaves so close it cuts (e.g. "Thorfinn-Macbeth").

12/8/2015 at 5:30 AM
12/8/2015 at 6:00 AM

Justin Swanström quoted:
=the Princess of Moray and heiress of Clann Duff appears to have "married" Eth (Aedh, later Aodh, Gaelic form of Aethelred), Last Abbot of Dunkeld, who himself was the eldest of the four royal sons of Malcolm III=

Sharon Doubell said: *What is the evidence for this leap?
No documentation shows a marriage or children (legit or llegit) for Ethelred, let alone one with the opposition faction in Moray!
If the validification lies simply in the existence of a person called Aed signing charters - that doesn't seem a good enough reason. Aed is not the Gaelic translation of Aethelred at all. Scots king Aed reigned in 877, long before Margaret named her son.
Further Aed disappears c 1130 ( while the dates quoted here for Ethelred's death appear to only be as late as 1100 (Although I can't really see what that is based on. Church assumptions about these things are not the most disinterested of sources. It's not like there's been carbon dating of the corpses.) Cawley assumes before 1107, but doesn't provide reasons for that.

What reason to presume he's the eldest son, when the only documentation we seem to have - Roger of Hoveden & John of Fordun - place him firmly as Margaret's third son.

Justin Swanström said: it's worth clarifying something said earlier. Aed is not a translation of Ethelred. Of course not. It's a simple substitution for a familiar name for a foreign name, in the same way that Hrolf became Rollo in Normandy, or Saorbreathach became Justin in Ireland, or half the guys I know named Harry have the Hebrew name Chaim ;)

12/8/2015 at 6:15 AM

The conflation with the person Aed - who is never connected to the House of Dunkeld strains credulity to my mind. How likely is it that a son of the king could simply change his identity so far as to be able to sign documents without it being acknowledged that he was Abbot of Dunkeld, or son of Malcolm or even Earl of Fife.

They're different men.

The point about the translation is that the argument reveals itself to be proving itself using it's own initial assumption. The Moray men / the scribes didn't need to change Aethelred to Aed. Just because the beginning of the one sounds like the beginning of the other is not proof that the men were the same person.

12/8/2015 at 6:20 AM

Justin Swanström said: I'm personally convinced that the heraldry of the MacDuffs is significant in some way, almost certainly indicating that they are close cousins in some way of the Malcolm III line not just remote dynasts.

My reply: I do not disagree. If, by the 16th Century, Shakespeare was already linking a Macduff ancestor in support of the Dunkeld throne, it's highly likely he got that from somewhere.
I'm questioning whether this proves anything about Ethelred and the Moray heiress, though.
Lady Macbeth's / Gruoch's involvement in Moray doesn't place the Macduff family in Moray. Boite (Gruoch's father) was the younger brother of Giric & Gille Comgain MacKenneth (all three the sons of King Kenneth MacDuff). This family line remains in Fife. There must be sisters and daughters who continue the line - and Shakespeare's MacDuff must certainly be envisaged to have come from this part of the family.

That being said, The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, s.a. 1078, reports that "In this year Máel Coluim seized the mother of Máel Snechtai [Lulach’s son] ...and all his treasures, and his cattle; and he himself escaped [only] with difficulty"
This potentially places Lulach's daughter or sister in Malcolm's household for a period of time....

Private User
12/8/2015 at 7:22 AM

Shakespeare's tradition came from Wyntoun (c. 1350 – c. 1425) and Fordun (*well* before 1360 – c. 1384) by way of Holinshed (pub. 1577).

Fordun's "Chronica Gentis Scotorum" was actually written and distributed (one can hardly say "published" of handwritten manuscripts) first, c. 1360. An "anonymous" person, almost certainly Walter Bower, continued (and embellished) Fordun's chronicles in the 1440s, and *that* work is known as the "Scotichronicon".

Wyntoun's verse "Orygynale Cronykil of Scotland" was produced in the early 1400s, and includes the first(?) account of Macbeth and the three witches.

There is an extensive list of Holinshed's major sources here:

Private User
12/8/2015 at 7:31 AM

"Macduff, Thane of Fife" as the main opponent to Macbeth and supporter of Malcolm mac Duncan appears for the first time in Fordun, and there is a school of thought (headed by Skene) that Fordun completely made him up.

Note that even by Fordun's time the tradition of Macbeth as a cruel and bloody usurper was firmly established!

12/8/2015 at 7:33 AM

> The Moray men / the scribes didn't need to change Aethelred to Aed.

No, they certainly didn't. But there is no assertion here that they did. The idea is that in a bi-lingual world it might have been very usual to have a different name in different languages. Aed when speaking Gaelic, Aethelred when speaking Scots -- for example.

> Just because the beginning of the one sounds like the beginning of the other is not proof that the men were the same person.

Not proof that they were the same, but also not proof they weren't.

> the only documentation we seem to have - Roger of Hoveden & John of Fordun

I would amend this to be "the earliest documentation easily available on the Internet." As I've said before, there are hundreds of little clan histories that were written or copied later but seem to draw on earlier sources. It's not a simple problem of dating. The tradition that makes Aed = Aethelred invariably has him as the disinherited eldest son and heir. That in itself should call for search for manuscript sources beyond Fordun and Hoveden.

> They're different men.

Plausible if you're talking about a specific Aed in a Latin charter drawn at court. Speculative if you're talking about whether Aethelred himself was also called Aed.

Private User
12/8/2015 at 7:36 AM

Some of the very historians who rail against the existence of "Macduff" *also* kvetch about attempts to "rehabilitate" Macbeth!

12/8/2015 at 7:37 AM

> there is a school of thought (headed by Skene) that Fordun completely made him up.

It's this type of analysis that begins to be useful. If "MacDuff, Thane of Fife" was invented by Fordun, how does that affect the line of the later MacDuffs? (Remembering, that their earliest authenticated ancestor outside the "tradition" seems to have been Gillemichael MacDuff.)

Private User
12/8/2015 at 7:39 AM

Except for one thing, Justin - "Aethelred" is Anglo-Saxon, *not* Scots. No one would use *that* form unless they were *English*, and not too many of them (since by that time the court language of England was Norman-French).

The Scots might have elided it to "Aelred/Ailred", as seems to have happened with Aelred/Ailred of Rievaulx and the other teo Aelreds I mentioned. But shortening it to "Aed" - no, no, and no.

Private User
12/8/2015 at 7:44 AM

When it comes down to transliterating/equating names, the Celtic peoples do not always do the "logical" thing. Consider that less than a half-century after Ethelred of Dunkeld's time, the "Normanized" Scots had decided that "Aed" (and its variants) was to be equated to *Hugh*, a thoroughly Norman name.

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