Domhnall? (mac meic Dubh) MacAlpin - Line back to Giric

Giric is poorly attested, and it is *highly* unlikely that he survived the battle of Monzievaird (where his father Kenneth III was killed by Malcolm II). If he did, Malcolm would surely have hunted him down.

Domhnall son of Giric is known from the "Book of Deer", but it is unknown whether the reference is to *this* Giric. Whoever added the "Domhnall?" profile (I named it) seemed to think that he was included in Malcolm II's purge of 1032-33, which would mean he couldn't be "Macduff" and "Macduff" had to be his son.

It's not clear why, in that case, "Macduff" would have been a partisan of Malcolm III - unless maybe the surviving family members scrammed out of Scotland to e.g. Cumbria and made connections with Malcolm there.

Clarification: they would have gotten out first, and *later* made the acquaintance of Malcolm III once they found out he wasn't as bloody-minded as his granddad.

=Whoever added the "Domhnall?" profile (I named it) seemed to think that he was included in Malcolm II's purge of 1032-33=
You don't think that they might have been intending this profile to be the grandson of Boite who was killed in 1033, whose father's name was Gille?

Medlands:
BOITE [Bodhe] (-before 1033). His parentage is confirmed by the Annals of Ulster which record that "the grandson of Baete son of Cinead was killed by Mael Coluim son of Cinaed" in 1033[217]. m ---. The name of Boite's wife is not known. Boite & his wife had two children:
a) GILLE . Iinquisitions by "David…Cumbrensis regionis princeps", dated 1124, concerning land owned by the church of Glasgow refer to donations by "…Gille filius Boed…"[218]. same person as…? son. m ---. m ---. The name of this son's wife is not known. He & his wife had one child:
i) son (-murdered in infancy 1033). The Annals of Ulster record that "the grandson of Baete son of Cinead was killed by Mael Coluim son of Cinaed" in 1033[219].
http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SCOTLAND.htm

=included in Malcolm II's purge of 1032-33, which would mean he couldn't be "Macduff" and "Macduff" had to be his son.=

I'm probably being slow, but can you explain why a 1030's death would mean he couldn't be "Macduff"? Are you actually saying that he couldn't be Shakespeare's Macduff? ie because he had to be around to kill Macbeth?

How cool and timely! On Sunday I saw the new film version of MacBeth. You may enjoy it.

Ahh, I didn't know there was a new version out.

"Shakespeare's Macduff", whether or not his history bore any resemblance to That Scottish Play, would need to have lived through the reigns of Malcolm II, Duncan I, Macbeth, and at least early Malcolm III. That puts him in an approximate range 1020-1070, give or take a few years on each end.

One could, of course, remove the "Killed by Malcolm III" notation on "Domhnall?" and extend his dates out to c. 1060 or so, by which time he would be very old indeed.

I think Shakespeare is quite likely to have used the MacDuff name as synechdochical for the clan that invested and therefore defended the kingship, rather than having taken him from an historical person. Shakespeare was given to using scenes from different eras for the dramatic effect. The killing of the old king in his bed is from far earlier in the Scots' story - it certainly doesn't pertain to the real Duncan who was a young man killed on the battlefield.
We know that Macbeth is routed by Siward, not MacDuff, so I don't think we need to look for a MacDuff who is necessarily Macbeth's contemporary.

I'd like some Sources for Domnall and his 1032 death before we try and figure it historically. Every chance this is just a mash up, without them- especially if it is you who named him.

To clarify. I do think there was an actual MacDuff - that much seems relatively obvious in his descendant's naming patterns. I don't think it is necessary to apply the time parameters of Shakespeare's play to him.

I think the present profile for Domnall, with his death date - is quite likely to be a mash up, and I'd like to compare 'traditional' sources for him.

I have an unsourced note that seems to show I was thinking at one point that Constantine, Earl of Fife, supposed son of Aed / Ethelred might be someone's mistake for an earlier generation where Constantine II was son of Aed and grandson of King Kenneth MacAlpin. A little byway for someone to think about someday, but not particularly relevant to the main problems.

But this family was descended from Dubh mac Máel Coluim, King of Scots, so it is likely they were descended from a son or brother of his son Kenneth III. Geni already has a brother of this Kenneth -- "Macduff". This is almost certain to be a duplicate for Macduff, although it might not be positioned properly. Remember that piece we saw a few days ago where Macduff was shown with the given name Duncan?

The Domnall > Giric pair in the line seems to be an interpretation based on Gruoch's brother, or nephew (his name is not recorded), who was killed in 1033 by Máel Coluim mac Cináeda [Malcolm II]. Annals of Ulster 1033.7. The victim is reported as M. m. Boite m. Cináedha, which is variously read as "the son of the son of Boite" or as "M. son of Boite". If Boite was a son of Kenneth III he was probably a child in 1033.

https://archive.org/stream/cu31924028144313#page/n729/mode/2up

*A* Domnall mac Giric is referenced in the "Notes to the Book of Deer" - however, the year is not given, and he is paired with an otherwise unknown Mal-Brigte mac Chathail (son of Cathal). All we know about them is that they were persons of sufficient importance to donate a place called "Pett in Muilinn" to the church.

We also have not accounted for the three(?) Mac-Dubaicín/Mac-Dobarchon brothers(?) in the concluding sentences of section. Two of them, Domnall and Cainnech, probably were members of the same family, and Cainnech may have been the mormaer of Buchan whose son Gartnait is all over sections III and IV. "Cathal" is noted in one line as "toisech" but otherwise remains a riddle.

Okay, I'm moving "Macduff" to our Macduff amalgamation profile. This Duncan is merrily supposed to have been around to lay into Macbeth in 1056, despite having been born to a man who died in 967. This gives new meaning to his not having been of woman born. :-)
Justin, do you remember where you quoted the Duncan as first name source?

=We also have not accounted for the three(?) Mac-Dubaicín/Mac-Dobarchon brothers(?) in the concluding sentences of section.= Sorry, I'm probably being stupid - but I can't figure out what this references, Maven.

This on Domnall mac Giric:
https://books.google.co.za/books?id=K_I8AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA47&lp...

Book of Deer, again.

Domnall son of Mac-Dubaicín quenched all the grants in favour of Drostán in return for giving him his goodwill. Cathal quenched his toísech's dues on the same terms, and gave a banquet for a hundred every Christmas and Easter to God and to Drostán. Cainnech son of Mac-Dobarchon and Cathal gave Altrie of the cliff of the birch-tree of the river-bend(?) as far as the birch-tree between the two Altries. Domnall and Cathal gave Ednie to God and to Drostán. Cainnech and Domnall and Cathal quenched all the grants in favour of God and of Drostán from beginning to end, from mormaer and toísech till Doomsday. And the blessing of the Lord on every mormaer and every toísech who shall comply with it, and to their descendants after them.

They're listed right after "Mal-Snechta son of Lulach", and we know who and when *that* was.

> Justin, do you remember where you quoted the Duncan as first name source?

No, sorry.

Thanks for the linky, Sharon. If they're right and the dating is in the 880s or thereabouts, that increases the chances that "Mal-Brigte son of Cathan" was also known as "Malbrigte Tooth". (And the only reason we know about *him* is a story that appealed to the Norse sense of black humor.)

Seems an earlier Sigurd, Jarl of Orkney, a several times great-great of Thorfinn's (he's been tentatively identified with Sigurd Eyvindsson, d. c. 892) had a running feud with someone on the Scottish mainland, probably Moray, who was buck-toothed or had some other form of projecting teeth - "Orkneyinga Saga" calls him "Malbrigte Toothy". Anyway, they set up a "fair fight", each side to bring 40 men. Sigurd cheated and brought 80, riding double. He had little trouble wiping out Malbrigte's men and beheading him, and hung Malbrigte's head at his saddle-bow. But the projecting teeth scratched Sigurd's leg, and the wound got infected and Sigurd died of blood poisoning.

Lol, that's one of my favourites :-)

So, I'm still stuck on what to do about Domhnall? mac meic Duibh. I see that the profile Zachary Allen Gunsalus created in 2008 was for a no name female MacAlpine.
Private User, can you remember what source you were trying to acknowledge when you made her Domnall grandson of Duff?

Postioning him as Macduff's father, and the son of Giric II mac Cináeda, King of Scots is tantalising - but there has to have been a reason:

Kenneth III & his wife had [three] children:

1. [GREG [Giric] (-killed in battle Monzievaird [25 Mar 1005], bur Isle of Iona). The Chronicle of the Picts and Scots dated 1251 records that "Girus mac Kinath mac Duff" reigned for 8 years, was killed "a filio Kinet in Moeghauard" and was buried at Iona[184]. The Chronicle of the Picts and Scots dated 1317 includes the same information[185]. His existence is not recorded in any of the earlier chronicles and should be treated with caution. The Chronicle of John of Fordun records that King Kenneth II decreed a change to the Scottish royal succession to enable "the nearest survivor in blood to the deceased king to succeed", in opposition to "Constantine the Bald, son of King Culen, and Gryme son of Kenneth son of King Duff"[186]. The Chronicle of John of Fordun records that "Gryme the son of Kenneth son of Duff" succeeded in 996 after King Constantine III was killed and reigned for eight years and three months[187]. The Chronicle of John of Fordun records that Grime was killed by Malcolm, son of King Kenneth II, adding that the latter arranged his burial at Iona[188].]http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SCOTLAND.htm

I'm a little skeptical about this line but someone, somewhere must have speculated it, so I'm doing some broad searches to see what I can find.

I checked Fabpedigree. Of course, that's not a real source for anything but if Fabpedigree says something, you know the idea is out in the world somewhere and is probably very common. So, it becomes a problem of trying to figure out where they got it.

They have Constantine (2nd Earl) as possibly son of Dufagan. No surprise there. That's the old, traditional line.

Then Dufagan is possibly son of "(Duncan?) MacDuff". That's Shakespeare's guy, and we see another hint there is some source out there somewhere who said his given name was Duncan.

Then Dufagan is possibly the son of Dubh.

http://fabpedigree.com/s048/f207576.htm

This wouldn't be worth mentioning except that it seems to echo something a bit more solid.

I'm dead certain that somewhere I've seen a line from the later Macduffs back to Grimus, son of Dubh.

Before I go on, I should say that there are two, or maybe three, men who are called Gimus.

First, there is a Grimus [I] son of Dubh. I posted a bit about him when I was talking about James Anderson, Royal Genealogies (1732). I always look at Anderson because it seems like every common myth in the western genealogical tradition traces its popularity back to him.

Second, there is this Giric [II] (died 1005) seemingly called Grimus. I think John of Fordun was confusing this Giric with Grimus I. He got the name wrong but the relationship right.

Third, very confusingly, there is Crinan, Lay Abbot of Dunkeld, who is called Grimus [II] in many old sources. I don't know if this was a Victorian confusion or if it is supported by ancient sources. The 1845 edition of Burke's Peerage is one easy example:

https://books.google.com/books?id=ZfdRAAAAcAAJ&pg=PR29&dq=g...

If I'm wrong about Fordun being wrong, then maybe we need to keep in mind a 4th possible Grimus -- the Giric [i] who was a grandson of Kenneth MacAlpin.

Giric MacDonald reigned about 878 - so I'm just ignoring him :-)

Yes, the Crinan Grimus naming pattern I've seen too.

But this Grimus I don't know: "First, there is a Grimus [I] son of Dubh. I posted a bit about him when I was talking about James Anderson, Royal Genealogies (1732)." Which Discussion is that in and I'll go and look.
I have Duff's sons as Kenneth & Malcolm

I've been trying to remember or find where I got the idea that Macduff was son of Grimus [I]. It's an idea that makes sense to me because it would put Macduff far enough away from Macbeth's wife Bethoc that she might be heiress of the family without a strong contest from Macduff.

If Macduff was son of Giric [II], for example, he would have been Bethoc's 1st cousin. Close enough that he ought to have been "tanist" (designated heir), not her. This is a very subjective argument, I know, but it's hard for me to imagine that this powerful branch of the Fife royal family would easily acquiesce to an heiress married into the family of their rivals in Moray if they had a strong male leader who could contest her claim.

On the other hand, if Macduff was a son of Grimus, he would have been a 1st cousin Girich II and Boite. If he was a grandson of Grimus, same thing. He might have contended with Gruoch for the succession in Fife, lost, then thrown his support behind Malcolm III.

None of this would be anything more than speculation without some kind of evidence.

The other day I posted a reference to King Dubh taken from a genealogy published with the Welsh version of Nennius.

https://books.google.com/books?id=jdJXAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA284&dq=...

Did anyone but me notice the footnote about Grimus?

The editor identifies the Mac Duibh in the poem as Kenneth III. He notes "O'Flaherty says, 'Grimus, Scoticè Macduibh; hoc est Duffi seu Dubhondonis filius, quem proprio nomine Kenneth dictum invenio.'"

(Grimus, in Gaelic Macduff; this is the son of Duffus aka Dubhoda, whom I find properly named Kenneth.")

However, the editor admits there is confusion in this area. He seems to doubt that the brothers Kenneth and Grimus are really the same person but concludes that the Mac Duibh in the poem is probably Kenneth III.

> Which Discussion is that in and I'll go and look.

These discussions are so fragmented that it's hard to find anything. I don't remember. I was saying that Anderson makes Grimus a son of Mogallus rather than Duffus, and also a *paternal* grandfather of Banquo.

The link is here, p. 81.

https://books.google.com/books?id=yrqeY839bMwC&q=duffus#v=snipp...

> I have Duff's sons as Kenneth & Malcolm

Yes. Grimus is often omitted because the evidence for him relies on old manuscript genealogies.

A quick detour just to get it out of the way and because someone might notice something useful --

Victorian genealogies are often just elaborate fantasies but they sometimes provide little nuggets than can be clues to "something".

In Northern Notes & Queries (1888) there is a Hay genealogy that says:

"III. Kenneth Hay succeeded, and married Victoria, daughter of Duff Gilmackillan, and sister of Macduff, Thane of Fife. They had four sons, (1) Duncan, (2) Grimus, (3) Kenneth, (4) William. Kenneth, and his sons Duncan and Grimus, were killed by Macbeth about 1050."

https://books.google.com/books?id=PPAGAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA59&dq=g...

Total nonsense. This writer seems to have drawn the names for his inventions from other old genealogies, although he likes modern names such as Victoria, Cecilia, and Winifred for the women.

The father of this Kenneth is supposed Achaicus, which seems to be borrowed from the legendary Scottish king Achaius. Duncan and Kenneth are innocuous Scottish names. Perhaps predictable that this Duncan is also killed by Macbeth. He doesn't seem to notice how unlikely it would be for a Scottish noble to name a son William before the time of Malcolm III.

And Grimus? How very odd he would invent a son named Grimus with a Macduff mother. I suspect he was looking at some other publication that made Grimus the ancestor of the Macduffs.

The part that fascinates me, though, is the name Duffe Gilmackillan for Macduff's father. I can understand Duffe as a logical invention. But Gilmackillan?? I can't think of any other character in this whole broad area where he might have found that name.

Mike Ashley, British Kings and Queens (1998) gives quite a few little bios for some very obscure people. I often use these to get my bearings.

For Dubh he says:

Duff or Dub, Strathclyde 954-62; Scotland 962-6/7.
The son of Malcolm I. When he was nominated as king of Strathclyde, he inherited a kingdom much enlarged by the victories of Indulf over the English in Lothian. Duff thus ruled a kingdom which stretched from the Clyde to the Forth,south to the Tweed on the east coast and the Ribble on the west. He held this land as heir to the throne of Scotland, and not in his own right, but it still formed a substantial kingdom. When Indulf retired to a monastery in 962 Duff inherited the throne of Scotland and he passed on the kingdom of Strathclyde to his cousin, Donald mac Owen. This enraged Cuilean, the son of Indulf, who expected to be the next heir, and led to a civil war between Cuilean and Duff. Duff was initially victorius, but in 966, perhaps in league with the men of Moray, Cuilean succeeded in driving Duff out of his kingdom. He was slain in Moray by the governor of Forres Castle. Somehow his body was collected by his kin and conveyed all the way to Iona for burial, a remarkable journey considering the troubled times. (pp. 388-9)

Also from Mike Ashley, for Kenneth III & Giric II:

Kenneth III Scotland, 997-1005
Giric II Scotland, 997-1005
Kenneth was the son of Duff and may already have been in his forties or fifties when he wrested the throne from Constantine III. It is possible that because of his age Kenneth agreed that his son Giric rule jointly with him, although he also recognized his cousin, Malcolm [II], as king of Strathclyde and Cumbria, the title usually held for heirs to the throne. So, although Kenneth evidently sought to secure the future kingship for his son, there was already a built-in tension. In 1005 both Kenneth and Giric were killed at Monzievaird, near Loch Earn, by Malcolm. (p. 390)

>Maven B. Helms, can you remember what source you were trying to acknowledge when you made her Domnall grandson of Duff?

One problem was that no female profile would have been named "mac" - she would have been "ingen" or "nic".

Another was the scanty evidence for sons and no evidence at all for daughters.

"Domhnall? mac Giric" was a WAG based on a citation from the "Book of Deer" - which, however, had no date attached and could have been much earlier. (If "Malbrigte son of Cathal" was "Malbrigte Tooth", then it *was* much earlier.)

There's a rather persistent tradition that the Macduffs were descended from Giric son of Kenneth son of Duff - doesn't mean it's correct, as Kenneth seems to have had another son named Gille Coemgain, about whom little is known except that his granddaughter and her husband were murdered in Ireland in the year 1035 (Annals of Ulster for that year). She was specifically stated to be "daughter of the son of Gille Coemgain son of Kenneth" - so Gille C had at least one son too.

> There's a rather persistent tradition that the Macduffs were descended from Giric

That's what we're all looking for. Do you have a citation?

According to the Wik: "John Bannerman theorised that mac Duib, the Gaelic patronymic of Kenneth III, evolved to the surnames Duff and MacDuff. And that Kenneth III could be a direct ancestor to Clan MacDuff, which produced all Mormaers and Earls of Fife from the 11th to the mid-14th century. Noting that Giric could be the actual founder of the house, following a pattern of several Scottish clans seemingly founded by grandsons of their eponym." (Bannerman, MacDuff of Fife. Article included in Medieval Scotland: Crown, Lordship and Community, pages 20–39. Edinburgh University Press, 1998. ISBN 0-7486-1110-X)

Now, was somebody thinking along those lines before him, or did he pull it out of his ear?