Maaij Claesje van Angola - Any known portraits for Maaij Claesje van Angola?

Private User - who is the person being referenced here:
"A small amount of West African admixture (Angola included in reference population) is reported in the atDNA results of one of Christijn's descendants who has no other known ancestors of African origin (https://www.geni.com/discussions/155279?msg=1096867). This suggests at least one of Christijn's parents was most likely a slave from "Guinea" or "Angola" who arrived at the Cape aboard the "Hasselt" or Amersfoort" in 1658." on Christijn Pietersz van de Caep's profile?

Also, it seems you want to remove the West African mtDNA Haplogroup L4b2b reference from 'Maaij' Claesje van Angola's Curator note.
Run me through the reasons why we think she isn't from Angola?
'Maaij' Claesje van Angola

I have removed that note - I don't recall my reasons

Hi Sharon Doubell,

Kirsten-Louise Mason is the Christijn Pietersz descendant who reports her atDNA results in that discussion thread.
Would you be happy to be named on Christijn's profile Kirsten?

I felt that in the absence of an mtDNA result (which I hope we may still find one day) - Kirsten's atDNA results are of interest in proving a clue to Christijn Pietersz' origins. Obviously it's virtually impossible to PROVE that the West African admixture in Kirsten's results does actually come from Christijn......but if her recorded ancestry is correct, then it is at least a possibility, given the unusual circumstance that she has only one African (slave) ancestor.

In response to the other question:
L4b2b is an extremely interesting mtDNA result for Maaij Claesje van Angola! - which is supported on Geni by Noelene Pearce's test results ( a descendant of Claesje's daughter Jannetjie van Wyk)
So please can you restore those to the curator's note Private User

Restore what Ian?

Maaij Claesje's curator's note mentioning her L4b2b Haplogroup.
But I've just checked and see it's still there, so I think we are all misunderstanding each other. :) :) :)

Sharon, re your question about Maaij Claesje being from Angola:
L4b2b - is according to TFFYP "a rare group which current information suggests is centered in northwest Africa around Mali".

Doesn't sound like it's likely to have been found in Angola -or surrounding West central African populations where the Amersfoort slaves are likely to have originated.

It's possible of course that once in S.A. the exact origin of a particular slave may have been forgotten or been of so little significance the "van Angola/Guinea" toponym was misused. But I have yet to see any instance of Angola/Guinea being used interchangeably.

A close scrutiny of the FFYP page reveals that the toponym "van Angola" was never applied to "Claesje" directly in the record.
It appears to result from an ASSUMPTION that "Marselij van Angola" who appears in the record from 1652-60 under that name ....was the same individual named "Pollecij" from 1666-1669......and then named only as "Claesje" from 1671-1689. :0 !!!

I think this all needs to be re-examined. What was the reason for this assumption that Marselij/Pollecij/Claesje is the same person?

Yes - it does look like it's overdue us examining it, Ian. Thankyou for bringing it up.

Okay, so the first issue to get out of the way is the question of whether there is sufficient proof for the Angola designator to make it plausible.

For me, the DNA isn't a sufficient answer because people did move around Africa. Her lineage's origins might be elsewhere even if she herself was born in Angola.

The links, if any, between those three women are, as you point out, the crux of the matter.

Hi all, sorry for the delayed reply, so busy with family life etc. Ian, I'm happy to be named in Christijn's file. My mother and I are at Gedmatch and FTDNA also so I can give you those results with the focus being on the African. I did read somewhere that L4b2b is East African in origin... that might've been on the 23andme forums but I may be thinking of just L4b.

There seems to be several African Americans at 23andme with this haplogroup suggesting it is West or Central African in origin. I'll find the source for this...

It would be amazing if more descendants of Christijn are found. Is there somehow a possible way to generate a list of Anna van Beulen's (her granddaughter) living descendants as they'll carry Christijn's mtDNA?

I only have 3 mtDNA matches from my Family Tree test. I have no information on them except that one lives in America, one lives in Brazil and the other has no details.
I was also not given much information by "Family Tree"
My Autosomal DNA test from Ancestry came back with 2% Mali.
Sorry, I have no other information. As I am fairly new to Geni, my tree is a work in progress

Thanks Noelene,
Your mtDNA match to someone in Brazil suggests then that a Central African origin is still a possibility..... and that diffusion may have carried the Haplo that far.

But is still more likely to have a West African origin where L4b2b is "largely restricted" -and therefore presumably more prevalent.

So we aren't off the hook with Claesje.

Yes it's remarkable that all my South African ancestors have been traced. I was stuck at a brick wall which was my 2xgreat grandmother for years until I sought help from Heather Woodland McAlister, who's a professional genealogist and the South African Genealogy Facebook page and it linked up well with the family trees at Geni.

I don't have any other Subsaharan African ancestors and I know that it is definitely coming from my maternal grandfather since my maternal grandmother has also been tested at 23andme. Mum and I also have South Asian which can be attributed as coming from Catharina van Paliacatta whom we're descended from twice.

Ian, I've been pondering the same thing re Christijn Pietersz van de Kaap's father...that he might be Pieter Pietersz (van Guinea) because of the Pietersz name and the dates correlate well. I hope evidence will be uncovered for both of Christijn's parents in the near future!

Hi Kirsten,
Unfortunately Christijn's baptism as an adult means the names of her parents wouldn't have been recorded. If you are able to get hold of a copy of Nigel Worden's book (https://books.google.co.za/books?id=nMYYn91ZR-kC&source=gbs_nav...) there may be clues to her identity somewhere in the letters.

As to your earlier question about identifying mtDNA descendants of Anna van Beulen. Yes, I seem to remember from other discussion threads that there is a formula for finding female descendants. Could you please remind me Sharon Doubell

https://www.geni.com/projects/HistoryLink/14021

This site also hosts tools to build an interactive Descendants Graph as well as Ancestors! One of the options is to restrict the search to a single gender, which can help when seeking living descendants for DNA testing. This 'gender restriction' can be particularly useful when the maximum number of profiles would otherwise be encountered (the 'maximum' varies, based on a number of factors).

Note: The 'Focus Person' for either tool can be changed from the default of your own profile by first copying the Geni URL of the desired profile, then click the 'silhouette' icon after the name to get a prompt for pasting in the URL. After changing the 'focus' person, re-check the desired options.

Amongst the MTDNA descendants it throws out for
Christijn Pietersz van de Kaap, the following have been geni users, but none of them is presently:

Effa Pike, Jan Hendrik (Mossie) Basson, Wendy Helen Black, Sandra van Zyl, Private User Private User Private User

Lorraine seems to be the one mtDNA descendnt of Anna Susanna van der Heijde van de Kaap van Beulen, SM who has been on geni in the past 6 months.

Thanks Sharon!

Thanks Sharon. I'll message Lorraine and see if she's had her mtDNA tested or if she's willing too.

Update - I've made contact with Lorraine via messenger and she's keen to have her mtDNA tested! I'm happy to contribute money towards the cost. Who else can also contribute? I suggested to her that ftdna is the best since the test mtDNA and ship to South Africa which is where she's living.

Yaaay! Wish I could afford to.

I'll see how many may want to contribute otherwise I'm happy to purchase the kit myself. It's like the holy grail of mtDNA's for me lol.

I'm so happy you found me Kirston-Louise. Can't wait for things to happen.
Regards
Lorraine

Hi Lorraine, my 7th cousin.
It's very exciting x

Hi all, Lorraine has taken the mtDNA test and I'm just awaiting confirmation from the lab that it's arrived. Lorraine was told there's an estimated wait time of 8-10 weeks for results. Thank you so much Lorraine for taking the test and it'll be amazing to be able to officially connect Christijn Pietersz with Claesje or at least know her maternal origin in the instance she isn't Claesje's daughter.

Fantastic! Thanks Kirsten and Lorraine. Looking forward to hearing your results.

Hello crew,

According to the wizardry of the Geni, Maaij Claesje van Angola is my 10th great grandmother.

I have today ordered a DNA kit and will share the results in a few weeks.

As my link to Maaij Claesje van Angola, flips between mother and father a few times along the timeline is there any markers that would be helpful to look out for?

Hi Wellesley,
MtDNA (mitochondrial) is only passed down the female line, so if your descent line from Claesje flips between men & women then I'm afraid you won't be carrying her mtDNA haplogroup.
But an atDNA (autosomal) test - which is most likely the kind you've ordered - may reflect a small amount of admixed genes from the geographical are that Claesje's haplogroup originated from.

Drum roll..... results are in!

And.... :-)