HaRav Shabty Ashkenazi HaCohen Katz, the SCHaCH - The Shach lineage

Started by Dena Chaya Kamenezky on Wednesday, May 13, 2020
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5/13/2020 at 1:14 PM

I heard that the Shach traced his "father-son" lineage to Ezra HaSofer. Does anyone know the exact lineage, and if not, other lineage of the Shach?

Private User
5/13/2020 at 2:11 PM

Dena Chaya Kamenezky I once heard that the SCHaCH is the direct descendant of: Rabbi Akiva Hakohen Katz, ABD Saloniki (Alter of Salonika) who is supposed to be a direct descendant of Eli HaKohen. If this is so then it could be that the line from Eli HaKohen to the SCHaCH goes through Ezra HaSofer. I once say some information about the Eli to Akiva connection discussed on a web site run by R' Shimon: zion@rabbiShimon.com. R' Shimon may be able to explain the lineage in more detail.

5/13/2020 at 3:00 PM

Interesting, I didn't hear that!
Ezra was a cohen. according to wikipedia
That's all I can contribute

5/13/2020 at 10:21 PM

Rabbi Akiva Hakohen Katz, ABD Saloniki (Alter of Salonika)
According to all the Studies I made (including with Naftali Wakstein) he is Direct descendant of Eli HaKohen — Kohen Gadol,And son after son, up to Itamar, son of Aharon haCohen

5/14/2020 at 7:21 AM

Unfortunately, I don't think any of us have found anything in between Akiva and Eli; I'd love to find out more about the pre-Akiva generations, but given that he lived in the late 14th century until the early 15th, it's unlikely that we'll find any more info.

5/14/2020 at 7:26 AM

Also, it seems that Ezra came from the Elazar line, not Eli's Itamar line.

5/14/2020 at 8:34 AM

Haim Wartski, do you know anything any names between Rabbi Akiva HaKohen Katz of Salonika and Eli HaKohen? Actually, does anyone know anything any names between Rabbi Akiva HaKohen Katz of Salonika and Eli HaKohen? By the way, in Ezra 7:1 it says the lineage of Ezra HaSofer.

By the way, taking a yDNA test may be halachicly problematic.

5/14/2020 at 11:39 AM

There are a bunch of sefarim on Akiva’s page, but no more detail. However, in terms of Eli, as you probably know, he had two sons, only one of whom, Pinchas, had children.

5/14/2020 at 11:43 AM

And I also looked up Ezra’s lineage, and evidently, since he comes from elazar, the shach can’t be son-after-son. yechezkel and yirmiyahu were also kohanim, but I don’t remember from which branch.

5/14/2020 at 12:34 PM

Why can't the shach be son after son? Maybe he comes from Elazar?

5/14/2020 at 1:11 PM

But the Shach comes from Akiva and Akiva comes from Eli and Eli comes from Itamar.
Ezra comes from Elazar.
That’s assuming that the sefarim are correct about Akiva and Eli.
However, this is the first I’ve heard about a connection to Ezra; I haven’t seen it mentioned anywhere, so I’m inclined to think that the Shach doesn’t come from Ezra.

5/16/2020 at 5:02 AM

I am just desperate to find any ancestors of Akiva Hakohen Katz, born in 1360, my eighteenth great grandfather. I have the entire line down to me on my Ancestry tree (I don't use my Geni tree these days for so so many reasons, but my Ancestry tree has twenty eight thousand names on it. I belive the Geni tree is missing Akiva's son Nokhim HaKohen Katz, born 1398, who in turn, was the father of Yitzchak Hakohen Katz, born in 1430. The Geni tree has Akiva fathering Yitzchak when he was seventy, which is totally wrong. Anyway if anyone can help me with the father, grandfather etc etc of Akiva, going back before 1360, I would be so incredibly grateful for the rest of my life. One of you must have some evidence PLEASE.

Private User
5/17/2020 at 4:37 AM

I would like to add a wrinkle to this discussion. According to the Samaritan High Priest tradition, originally the SHP was from Eleazar's line, until 1624 (https://www.israelite-samaritans.com/religion/high-priests/). At that time, since there were no direct patriline descendants of Eleazar available, the priesthood was transferred to the Ithamar line. Therefore, the current SHP is, theoretically at least, a patriline descendant of the Ithamar line. If the SHP would consent to a yDNA test, it could lead to some interesting conclusions. As for yDNA and Halakha, I suppose the SHPs are guided by a different set of religious rules which may not have an issue with yDNA testing. PS: I agree that if Akiva of Salonika is from the Ithamar line then he cannot also be from the Ezra Ha Sofer line (which is Eleazar line). BUT I have yet to see any specific and credible evidence of R' Akiva's patriline descent from the any of these lines, besides the oft-repeated and dare I say unfounded meme that he is a descendant of Eli HaKohen.

5/18/2020 at 7:59 AM

I too find it interesting that there is little information about the Eli-Akiva connection, however it's unlikely that we'll find anything more. To respond to Mr. Levine, that makes us 12th cousins, once removed.

Private User
6/3/2020 at 9:05 PM

Does anyone happen to know where in Spain R' Akiva was born?

6/3/2020 at 9:33 PM

The rain in Spain is on the plain - of course ....

6/3/2020 at 10:39 PM

As you go back many times you know for sure that you are a descendant of ... but you do not know child by child how.
Naftali Walkstein helps me, and I know from him (he confirmed it) that I am descended from Samuel the Prophet (from two different branches), haramban Don Isaac Abrbanel and many others.
But when you do not know child after child how, you can not connect to their profile, but maximum to Write a note in their profiles that they are descendants of...
To Rashi: he is indeed a descendant of King David (through his mother) and it is possible that through his father too.
Naftali told me this: Through his mother it is for sure (and Rashi himself mentions it in the books)
About his father: In recent years The researchers thought the way to King David was a way someone wrote wrong, because one of the ancestor He had no children, but lately The researchers found evidence that the same ancestor had a daughter, and they are now investigating.

Private User
6/4/2020 at 3:52 AM

Or, La llluvia en Andalu(v)ia cae casi siempre en la pluvia(?).....Speaking of the SCHaCH, here is a photo of his monument in Moravia, which appears to be a book, written on all sides. Has anyone read all of this? There could be clues there: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabbatai_HaKohen

6/4/2020 at 6:16 AM

Private User

I read the information (in Hebrew), there is nothing there that we do not know
The legend is mentioned about his daughter (I also saw a Torah lesson on this subject), I have no idea If that is true or not

6/4/2020 at 7:21 AM

I’ve researched that story about his daughter Esther, and I’ve found very little outside of Jewish sources. None of them mention who this “princess Maria” was. I read a page that mentioned a palace burning down, it says “The messenger who returned from Dubingiai reported that everything on the estate was burned down, the buildings on the estate and the district” (http://www.lituanus.org/2015/15_1_03Kuncevicius.html#foots). This may be the Maria the story refers to: https://www.geni.com/people/Cecylia-Maria-ks-Radziwiłł-h-Trąby-Sien....

6/4/2020 at 7:46 AM

I saw a number of Torah lessons about his daughter, and i was very impressed with the story (although it seemed a little fanciful to me), when I looked into the story it became clear to me that it was probably a fairy tale.
Nor did I find any evidence that he was previously married to his marriage with my great-grandmother

6/4/2020 at 8:41 AM

The story of the Shach's daughter Esther is false. Someone else says the same exact story about the Shach's son Moshe.

11/25/2020 at 6:20 PM

My chavrusa is a direct descendant of The Shach...Adopted Princess it true.

It is also standard curriculum, as I understand it in the Bais Yaakov schools.

11/30/2020 at 1:15 PM

I’m also a direct descendant, albeit from Moshe and not Esther, and I’ve never seen the story in any primary sources.

11/30/2020 at 10:59 PM

As I wrote, because I was very impressed with the story I decided to research the subject.
I could not find any verification that the story was true. I could not find that he was married before the marriage of my great-grandmother (yenta).
If there is any proof that the story is true, I would love to read.
I have reservations about the identity of yenta's mother

12/7/2020 at 8:02 AM

Based off of the story, I researched three interconnected elements:
1) polish royalty
2) noblewoman called Maria
3) royal estate burning down

In terms of royalty, I decided not to search through literal royals, but rather members of the extended royal family.

In terms of Maria, the girl had to have an age similar to Esther and had to have survived childhood.

The estate obvious had to burn down at some point in the mid- to late- seventeenth century.

This criteria brought me results, as far fetched as they may be:

1) The Radziwill family
2) Cecylia Maria ks. Radziwiłł
3) Dubingiai Castle
“ The messenger who returned from Dubingiai reported that everything on the estate was burned down, the buildings on the estate and the district, except for three villages the size of a valakas [about 50 acres], are entirely burned down, some of the subjects slaughtered, some driven to Moscow.”

So there was a member of a polish royal family named Maria who was the same age as Esther whose whose burned down.

12/7/2020 at 8:03 AM

That’s a bit more detailed than my post from earlier.

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