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Scratchpad dumping place for the teamwork in progress updating the Scots Medieval Tree.
All welcome and encouraged
We're having difficulty with using inbox messaging to keep track of possible useful sources, sites etc to use in trying to decide on a template tree for some of the more disputed / vaguely sourced lines through this area.
So, this project is an experiment in co-ordinating a research team in a way that can store: rough thoughts, findings,good internet links or other sources, discussions, problem profiles to watch out for etc so that others can come back to them at a later stage, without losing the messages to attrition in their inboxes.
Don't worry about formatting - this is a sketch pad page, somebody else will jump in and format it after if you can't. More important is to log the questions and the subsequent research, however it looks
*Macbeth, King of Scots 's Descent line
QUERY:
Does Macbeth have a proveable descent line?
RESEARCH
See Discussion
- "These genealogies are believed to be accurate as far back as Airbertaigh (circa 1150). Beyond that there is need of caution. " Gerald McKinnon - 'Genealoy of the clan' http://studylib.net/doc/7697958/genealogy-of-the-clan-mackinnon#
- "Bannerman's acceptance of this [ Annals of Tighernag] pedigree has not been endorsed by David Sellar or by the historians of the MacQuarries, R. W. Munro & Alan Macquarrie; and the arguments against it have been most forcefully set out by Ted Cowan in his examination of "The Historical Macbeth". Graeme Mackenzie'd paper "Who was Cormac mc Airbertach?"
CONCLUSION
It is not possible to establish a descent line from Macbeth without using late and contradictory sources with a vested interest in establishing a connection.
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*Ethelred / 'Aed?' / 'Heth?' mac Máel Coluim, Lay Abbott of Dunkeld
QUERIES:
RESEARCH
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethelred_of_Scotland
[Ethelred] is often thought to have held the office Mormaer of Fife, but this is almost certainly a mistake. The source is ultimately Gaelic notitia of a grant to the Céli Dé monks of Loch Leven, later translated into Latin and incorporated in the Register of the Priory of St Andrews, where the grant is headed:
Edelradus vir venerandae memoriae filius Malcolmi Regis Scotiae, Abbas de Dunkeldense et insuper Comes de Fyf.[1]
Translated, this is "Edelradus man of venerable memory, son of King Máel Coluim of Scotland, Abbot of Dunkeld and also Mormaer of Fife". However, the same notitia record a number of witnesses, among whom are the brothers of Ethelred, David and Alexander; after the last two comes >>>Constantinus Comes de Fyf, i.e. Causantín, the actual Mormaer of Fife<<<. The contradiction has been explained by Bannerman. He argues that the translator had been thrown off by the use of a singular Gaelic verb for a joint grant (i.e. where the verb had two subjects), common in Gaelic charters. As a result, the translator omitted the mormaer, Causantín. At any rate, it is clear that Ethelred was never a mormaer of Fife, since Causantín is attested in other sources.
Bannerman, John, "MacDuff of Fife," in A. Grant & K.Stringer (eds.) Medieval Scotland: Crown, Lordship and Community, Essays Presented to G.W.S. Barrow, (Edinburgh, 1993), pp. 20–38
- Was he aka Aed & was he the husband of Lulach's daughter?
- Is he the father of Malcolm MacHeth?
- Are Malcolm MacHeth and Malcolm MacAlexander the same man?
CONCLUSION
NO
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[http://stage.geni.com/discussions/151553?msg=1056329
*NN, mother of Angus (daughter of Lulach; sister of Mael Snechta)
QUERY:
Curator Note from Sharon Doubell (8/11/2012): This is the daughter of Lulach and sister of Mael Snechtai. She is definitely the mother of Angus, possibly of Gruaidh, & Malcolm (unless Malcolm is Angus's son) Busy dis-entangling! Help welcome.
RESEARCH
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*James Dunbar 4th Earl of Moray
QUERY:
According to http://www.dunbardna.org/dnadunbarlineage.htm (whose main sources are quoted as: The Scots Peerage (Moray), Burke's Peerage 1934 (Dunbar of Mochrum), Burke's Peerage 1934 (Dunbar of Northfield), and Burke's Peerage 1934 (Hope-Dunbar)) [James Dunbar, 4th Earl of Moray James Dunbar] the 4th Earl was the son of Alexander Dunbar, who married Matilda/Maud Fraser, and was therefore the cousin of Thomas the 3rd Earl.
However, according to peerage.com (http://www.thepeerage.com/p10808.htm#i108074 , whose sources are Charles Mosley, Burke's Peerage and Baronetage, 107th edition; and Alison Weir, Britain's Royal Family: A Complete Genealogy) James the 4th Earl and Thomas the 3rd Earl were brothers, the sons of Thomas the 2nd Earl.
The following websites have similar discussions:
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2012-01/... - 4th Earl and 3rd Earl were brothers.
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00370670&tre... (Ref: Scots Peerage VI:301 ) - 4th and 3rd Earl were cousins.
http://www.caledoniansocietyofneworleans.com/main_pgs/clans/c_hist/... - 4th and 3rd Earl were brothers (this also includes a section which, confusingly, uses different ordinals for the Earls where Thomas the 3rd is referred to as the 7th Earl, and James the 4th Earl is referred to as the 8th Earl !).
http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=john%... (Ref: Complete Peerage IX:176-7) says that the 4th Earl was "brother and heir", but (Ref: The Scots Peerage VI:304-306) also states that "James, fourth Earl of Moray, who is always stated to be the son of Alexander Dunbar and Matilda Fraser".
How do we resolve this data conflict? Posted by Shelia Tolbutt in this discussion.
RESEARCH
Not hard, I don't think. These are all secondary sources citing other, presumably more reliable secondary sources. It's clear there is some doubt or room for argument, but reading all together it seems there was formerly some confusion that made the 4th Earl a cousin rather than brother of the 3rd Earl.
Both Complete Peerage and Scots Peerage are competent compilations, but both are known to have many problems. Despite these problems, I think CP has it right, and SP supports rather than contradicts CP.
All the other sources cited here seem to draw ultimately on either CP or SP.
Genealogics says the 4th Earl was a son of the 2nd Earl (brother of the 3rd Earl, not cousin). Genealogics is a compilation by Leo van de Pas, an excellent researcher. However, his cited sources are conspicuously missing SP. Also, he is active at SGM and often draws on the discussions there to improve his data. No evidence he has done that here. Instead, he is citing only the cursory stuff.
ThePeerage.com also says the 4th Earl was a son of the 2nd Earl. This site is another good compilation, by a team working primarily from secondary sources. It is known to have many, many problems. Notice that it cites Alison Weir, a good but not deep researcher. IMO, citing ThePeerage.com is about as authoritative as citing Geni.com.
DunbarDNA.org says the 4th Earl was a cousin of the 2nd Earl. This site is simply a compilation by someone. We don't know who. Comparing to Scots Peerage, we see that the 4th Earl "is always stated to be the son of Alexander Dunbar and Matilda Fraser, the heiress of James Fraser of Frendraught, though no charter evidence is adduced, not even by Macfarlane." So no surprise if an anonymous compilation follows the "party line". This is a DNA site, so their primary interest is likely to be identifying men in the Dunbar male lineage, not in sorting out disputed 15th century lines.
Caledoniansocietyofneworleans.com says the 2nd and 4th Earls were brothers (not father and son). This is another anonymous compilation. I see no evidence here that this is anything more than a quick narrative overview. No research, no citations except to "antiquarian books published in the 1800's." Notice that this material was cribbed from ElectricScotland.com, a site that has a lot of general un-sourced info drawn from many published clan and tartan books.
BTW, I have a shelf full of these clan and tartan books. They rarely deal with genealogical detail. The idea is rather to give a brief and exciting history of the various clans. One of these, Frank Adam's _Clans, Septs and Regiments of the Scottish Highlands_ does actually go into detail once in a while. It says the 4th Earl was son of the 2nd Earl.
Finally, the Rootsweb.com site is an amateur compilation, valuable here only because it quotes the CP and SP entries.
So, except for CP and SP, these secondary sources are all just static. None of them add anything.
Alex Maxwell Findlater's post at SGM is different. He is a highly competent researcher specializing in exactly this area. He has actually looked deeper, and is able to discuss the underlying documentation and relationships.
SP says, "James, fourth Earl of Moray, who is always stated to be the son of Alexander Dunbar and Matilda Fraser, the heiress of James Fraser of Frendraught, though no charter evidence is adduced, not even by Macfarlane. When he succeeded his father or grandfather is not certain ..." So, we clearly see the doubt. SP isn't actually rejecting the idea that the 4th Earl was a cousin of the 3rd Earl, but it suggests they might have been brothers.
Findlater takes this and expands. He offers a plausible explanation for the confusion: "There was indeed an Alexander Dunbar who was a second son and the father of a Dunbar Earl, but he was in a much earlier generation."
And, he offers a plausible scenario for the 1432 re-grant: "The naming of Thomas [3rd] Earl of Moray as heir in the 1432 regrant seems likely because James [his younger brother, later 4th Earl] had only daughters and they wanted to keep the lands in the Dunbar family, so effectively an enforcement of a tailzie to heirs male. After all, if this scenario is correct, Earl Thomas [3rd Earl] would have been a party to his mother’s [the heiress of Frenraught's] demise to his younger brother [the 4th Earl]." Justin Swanström
CONCLUSION
Bottom line: everything so far shows that the 3rd and 4th Earls were brothers, sons of the 2nd Earl. In my opinion, Findlater is almost certainly correct when he says the confusion that made the 4th Earl a cousin of the 3rd Earl almost certainly results from an "over-reading" of another relationship.
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*Christian Stewart ; Robert Stewart 1st Earl of Orkney
QUERY:
Apparently her father emigrated to Norway and her first name is constantly being changed to Christina and back again, hence I've now found it necessary to ask a Curator to MP the profile.
Info cited from Moodie book 1906, internet archive.org open library. Also It was actually her son Robert Mudie / Moody / Moddy / Muderius who emigrated to Norway, most probably first to Bergen and later on to North Norway. Local stories tell of "Lairds / Lords" among his ancestors, and that his grandfather beging the Jarl (Earl) Robert of Orkney, which fits perfectly.
Research
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*Malcolm MacAlexandair & Malcolm MacEth, Earl of Ross
QUERY:
Were they the same man?
RESEARCH
CONCLUSION
No, they were different men. Malcolm MacAlexandair was the prisoner of Roxburgh, imprisoned with his son, Donald. Probably the brother in law of Somerled. Malcolm MacEth, Earl of Ross was the Earl of Ross who made up with King Malcolm IV.
Sources and Internet Links that we've found to review
- http://www.royal.gov.uk/HistoryoftheMonarchy/Scottish%20Monarchs(40...
- http://genealogy.euweb.cz/brit/dunkeld.html#M3
Encyclopedia Brittannica - the paper version: my own 1960s copy!
Huge section on this subject