Turning V.I.P. profiles into projects

Well they could be connected. That way both are covered and yet seperate!

On this profile I think its needed. I just havent gotten around to do anything about it!.

I think you'll thank yourself to have a clean project to refer to for genealogy. And you're right, there's lots of random discussion on his family. Could lead to their own spin offs.

Not to mention the TV series that have made the confusion total!

Hi guys, I'm back! Reading through what is discussed while I was asleep, it seems Justin Durand took an important lead with dominating questions screaming for answers.

Feels like everybody is looking at me now, to wave around a bit with my magic wand and come up with this beautiful cuddly white rabbit, which will supply answers for everyone here.

So, I let you all jump into the water before teaching you how to swim in this new pond I am suggesting? Is that it?

Let us remind ourselves where this discussion is actually taking place.

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We are on Geni's Project Concept Plaza:

Let’s break the boundries right here, right now!

In Search for new (un)conventional ways of creating Geni projects, every Plaza table represents a link to a conceptual discussion/forum, hosted by a project maker, presenting a new Project Concept idea.

Feel free to join in every discussion on one of these forums. Let our brains storm together!

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Now what I see here gathering at this Plaza are people from all different angles and corners involving project making.

One is absolutely fanatical on making projects, following project templates to the letter.

Another loves following all sort of projects out of pure interest

And then we have the creative minds, who love to invent new routes, new ways of how projects could evolve and break out of there project template corset.

It is absolutely fantastic to see how all these people here getting involved in what this discussion is stirring up, so it seems.

It is a rich palette of people who get the idea of a VIP Project, others getting absolutely carried away with it and new concepts are born, other people stock piling all of there questions, expressing there doubts, there fears.
Then there is even an artistic approach covered with those people who are taking a closer look to the layout possibilities in all it's facets.

Simply excellent!! This feels to me how a Plaza must be, how it should function. The social aspect of it, not to forget!!!

Describing all these different angles, impossibly to move them all into the same direction, that is, if that is really what we want. Personally I do not think like that is realistic.

Diversity is key here :)

Okay, so we’re doing Alice in Geniland? Cool. That helps me figure out why I was called here by Dimitri. I had thought it was because I had created single profile projects that he liked, and so he wanted me to help him brainstorm the long term ramifications of creating lots of Projects for people in addition to their Profiles - and then linking them under overarching Plazas for the purpose of more social Discussions.

So I stopped what I was doing and put some effort into thinking from my experience of single person Projects, what questions would be useful for Dimitri to ask. I have become increasingly puzzled that any thoughts I have on trying to extrapolate the big picture of this new direction for Geni, are regarded as simply a lack of creativity or a mistrust of innovation on my part. (And I am artistic – the pic on my project for Nelson Mandela is painted by me – so that’s been a bit odd for me.)

From my perspective, we seem not to be actually talking about anything at all, and certainly not engaging in a brainstorm that works through the actual possibilities & pitfalls for Geni. In trying to understand what I am supposed to be doing here for Dimitri, Erica’s ‘let the paint chips fall where they may’ description, helped me put an image to my - and, I can see others’ - confusion. To me, this feels like Alice’s House of Cards.
I tried to research the cultural differences that might be causing my confusion. The first thing google threw out was: http://businessculture.org/western-europe/business-culture-in-nethe... ‘In his book Dealing with the Dutch, Jacob Vossestein quotes the complaint of a foreign business visitor: “I wouldn’t mind missing the Dutch meeting culture. .. They only meet here for the sake of meeting. The positive side is that everyone is seeking consensus with one another, although often the opinions are fixed beforehand. It becomes a charade, a ritual, sponsored by coffee producers.” The irony of this complaint is that it comes from a German. Increasingly, meetings are team-oriented, with or without the participation of senior management. Project team meetings may be planned at short notice and often go on longer than the participants really want.’

So, okay – this has gone on longer than I want :-). It seems to me as though I was invited to participate only to create the impression of consensus, not really to brainstorm potentials & pitfalls. Dimitri, when you know me better, you’ll know I’m the last person you want for that purpose.

Here’s the questions I think you need to ask:
1) Is it possible that we could grow a separate tree of Projects of single profiles that could be less than beneficial for the Geni One World Tree mission?
So far, my own answer remains ‘Yes - if it got big enough, it could interfere with the principle of merging all profiles into one unduplicated tree - with our capacity to communicate about and search for genealogical facts & stories. It creates redundancy for the sake of constructing a central control project from which to host discussions.

2) But could it necessarily grow enough for question 1 to even be relevant?
So far my answer is ‘Yes – for the reason Jeannette gives us - nonPro users could find it easier to join projects on profiles they want to manage.’ Since my own motives keep being misunderstood – let me say clearly that I have no problem with that myself: I was one of the last men standing yelling at Geni for charging users like Jeanette who had donated hundreds of profiles to Geni. But the fact is that Geni is a business with bills to pay, so that’s not going to change.

I’m bowing out here, and I’m not invested in being right – (I have myself created single person projects for high traffic profiles; and I do see the beauty of fan pages) - just in the need to have asked and answered these questions adequately: because this new direction has the potential to create a huge amount of messy clean-up work for the rest of us if we paint with all the colours of the wind, and then abandon it because the picture is diversifying from Geni's One World Tree mission in ways that undermine it.

I truly get your concerns Sharon Doubell. More possible problems ahead, more work ahead and who is to clean up the mess afterwards.

I believe fears are being expressed here like:

"This is how Geni works. And this is what Geni stands for, and that possible new direction could be absolutely working out contra productive to Geni's main goal"

All these fears do simply not have the back up with a set of rules, a set of guidelines, or with a set of facts, how technically projects and profiles function, not to be messed about with.

It is there like a box full of tools, for everybody free or paid to use, even how scary that it may sounds, but this is the world we live in today, I'm afraid.

Actually, I am not afraid, I welcome it with open arms!

It is not Geni who sets the standard here, it is the users from all over the world coming together. All those customers in this Geni tavern needs to be served here.

They will tell you what they want and you simply have to listen to them and facilitate those needs, otherwise they would walk away easily, I assure you. Plenty of other taverns to choose from :)

Those people who are paying for an account, free 'accounters', volunteer curators, they all play there part in this, all with their different needs.

And I am not addressing these responsibilities to curators only. This is a responsibility for everyone here who carries a warm hart to Geni, simply because they loving it. We are all family!!

Dimitri Gazan you keep talking the sell, but Justin and I are looking for an example that you've created so we can truly understand its advantages.

I don't think its fair to judge a project as abandoned if nothing's been done to it after a year or more. The project I started - http://www.geni.com/projects/South-Africa-History-and-Families-of-W... - won't be having any changes done to it ever, unless it becomes necessary for a technical reason or to enhance its appearance from Dimitri's point of view.

[Sharon Doubell Sharon], I disagree with you on your 1) point. I don't think a separate tree of Projects could be less than beneficial, in the same way that it isn't now, notwithstanding Randy's concerns. My own answer would be - the bigger it gets the more beneficial and fun and attractive it becomes and won't interfere or take away from the 'principle of merging all profiles into one unduplicated tree - with our capacity to communicate about and search for genealogical facts & stories.' It won't create any more redundancy than the already, associated, redundancy there is now.

Bowing out now. Sharon's comments helped focus my thinking.

If there were answers to my questions, I'd have them by now instead of all this evasion.

Erica gave the most honest answer -- creating a massive number of new projects is an experiment. No one knows whether it will work or not, or what the consequences might be.

As Sharon says, we are "not engaging in a brainstorm that works through the actual possibilities & pitfalls for Geni."

That reminds me of the old adage that when all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail.

That means further discussion is pointless -- and unwelcome. People will create projects and we'll see what happens.

Thanks Brendan in response to your calling back: - It would be enough for me if you guys just discussed the pros and cons of that, exactly as Victar has been requesting for most of this discussion.

Randy's concerns are practical, & based in real experience:- so worth more than just a dismissal.

=I don't think a separate tree of Projects could be less than beneficial, in the same way that it isn't now=
A separate tree of Profile Projects doesn't exist right now. That is the point we're wanting you to think through.
Creating it just so that a few people can become Discussion Hosts to the rest, doesn't seem a good enough reason.

=It won't interfere or take away from the 'principle of merging all profiles into one unduplicated tree - with our capacity to communicate about and search for genealogical facts & stories. It won't create any more redundancy than the already, associated, redundancy there is now.=
Of course it will. Justin explains explicitly only one aspect of what the communication challenges are if we systematically create single profile Projects: "So, the Lenin project seems to bear out one of the concerns expressed here -- the profile+project model leads to fragmentation not integration. If I want to find Lenin discussions it's not good enough to just look at the discussions tab on his profile. I have to also check the project." (And I also have to know that there is a project.)

Maybe take a step back, Private User, and ask yourself why you have taken part in the active collaboration on Geni's Project Plaza:

https://www.geni.com/projects/Geni-s-Project-Plaza/26544

Maybe take a step back, Justin Durand, and explain why you have taken part in the active collaboration on Geni's Project Producers Plaza:

https://www.geni.com/projects/Geni-s-Project-Producers-Plaza/26580

We are discussing profiles and projects, and how the can pay tribute to each other. I introduced the Personal Project Page which is not very much different than a VIP. It tells a bit more about let's say Justin Durand, the profile, in the shape of a Personal Project Page.

Check his PPP:
http://www.geni.com/projects/Justin-Swanstrom/26599

and then compare it to his profile page:

Justin Durand

Geez, Dimitri, all I'm asking for is a example you've created. Why is that so hard?

Ad hominem arguments are not cool Dimitri.

Dimitri, I left the Project Concept Plaza right after posting the message above. Not because I'm angry, but because I'm not interested if my questions aren't being answered and my concerns aren't being addressed.

If you want me out of the Medieval Plaza as well, I'm willing to leave even though I do see some advantage to that.

I created my personal project page at your urging, and only to support your efforts. More than anything else it strikes me as a typical vanity page, but I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. I can certainly delete it as well if you'd like. No grief to me.

Believe me, Private User, Sharon Doubell and Justin Durand, you are asking me a lot of questions to which I give you my answers in this public discussion, here at Geni's Concept Project Plaza.

I see your frustrations clearly, one can not go pass that :) You ask very valuable questions to me, and perhaps forgetting that this discussion is taking place with more participants than just the 4 of us.

It is indeed I, who instigated the discussion about the VIP projects. I do my very best to host this discussion, to some maybe a not so desirable idea.

But we are actually discussing, brainstorming, make plans, and above all we do not put our minds here all together in this vibrant surrounding for the sake of creating a template, or to formulate some sort of new Dogma here.

Not sure why you keep asking me questions, while there are plenty more spirits here which are sharing their thoughts and ideas. Clearly I give you the answers you do not want to here.

If there are other participants that do try to maybe answer those questions for you, you have a chance to listen to them and exchange your thoughts on them.

I am so sorry for disappointing you lot, and it feels like such a shame to see you leave these very valuable brainstorm sessions. I really do hope to meet you next time on perhaps a different topic concerning project concepts in a manner you feel much more acquainted with.

This door is always open, this door is open source. So I will keep on welcoming you here. Friends all the same.

At least allow my to thank you all for the valuable contribution you have made so far in this conceptual discussion. Hopefully till a next time we meet again:)

Thank you all for a lively and fascinating exchange. :-) I want to point out something in response to something Justin Durand said: if a profile is tagged in a project discussion, that discussion is linked on the profile's Discussions tab. For example, this very thread appears on Charlemagne

(On the flip side, the profile has to be tagged; not every discussion in the Charlemagne project will appear on his profile)

Welcome Mike, so good to see you here popping by. Hope you have been entertained so far, which seems to be the case :)

Lively and fascinating it is indeed around here! You could describe it as buzzing!!!

It creates sleepless nights full of thoughts, new ideas, plans, new collaborations, but all to such a good cause!

It feels like the first celebration the Plaza concept is experiencing ,since they were created in ... a very short moment in time LOL

Look how people from all different angles of interests all of a sudden come together here on this social square and explode into questioning, exploring, inventing, proposing, you name it!!

I am thrilled, and also a bit sad at the same time, not all participants could find there answers here what they so desperately were looking for. And it feels like the brainstorming part here is far from over I'm afraid LOL

Maybe these things need time to settle in. I know, I had loads of time to think about these plans, as you could imagine, with the background where I am coming from.

What can I say more than enjoy the ride, and join in whenever you like doing so, Mike Stangel

Dimitri,

You say in the posting above "I give you my answers in this public discussion", but I'm afraid I still see a lot of unanswered questions.
I could be you did answer them, but I did not understood your answer.

It would help me if you try to answer them in a way the I could connect the answers to the questions. Could you do something like:
I answered question "...." with answer "....".
Or I cannot answer question "..."at the moment.

Now I really do not know what your answers were and to which question they were an answer.

I do see that projects are useful, like I think all that participated in this discussion do see it that way. But there where asked a number of questions and there were raised some issues on the way you want to use them (I'm still not sure I fully understand what you want to do) that deserve a clear answer (even if the answer is "I do not know [yet]" or "Let us do a try-out")

I think I see from your examples that a project could look more visual appealing than a profiles page. That could help may be help to get more people involved.

But like the Lenin project I think projects are more useful for other information then what should go in the about me. That would for me imply that there would be multiple project profiles (even when the main focus is on a VIP)

We have the functionality that Justin and Mike describe. It could be that something else would be more useful, but for me it is still not clear in what direction you are thinking.

Answering the questions and issues that where raised in a way that made it clear to all of use what those answer are (or that they cannot be answered at the moment), would help me and I hope some of the others as well.

Job Waterreus, quoting you;
..do not know [yet]" or "Let us do a try-out")

All I did was planting a seed that sprang out of my head in this discussion.

Even though I know what I want to do with it, perhaps the concept of it could trigger someone else to copy the idea or even bring it further or come up with, God knows what kind of aspect of it, and turning it into a completely different context.

I do not have answers to a lot of questions, others might have. Still unclear to me why all the questions keep on directed to me, while there are plenty of experts to bring the answers needed.

I am just an artist and I am used to work with tools, use to break conventions, explore the unknown. Preferably work with tools I know nothing about with just a gut feeling where these tools could lead to.

You can ask me a million times what the difference is between a project and a profile, why the are or are not related? Why should I answer that question. That sounds very technical to me.

What I want is, that profiles and projects should get involved with each other in a different relationship like we are use to.

I mean, the idea that projects should contain at least an X amount of profiles as a minimum. That doesn't mean that I should do so.

For all I care, I could drop my mother shopping list on it, if I wanted to LOL (I wouldn't Hahahaha!!!)

lastly, let me emphasize here again that I am not asking here anyone's permission to try out the VIP Plaza. In fact, My draft is ready to be implemented into this new project.

I was hoping for some extra inspiration from all the pro's and contra's...and Hell yeah!!! I got them vibes, man!

For all the Justin Durand supporters out there, I believe your example will be presented to you within 24 hrs from now...clock is ticking and I still need to catch some sleep somewhere LOL

All I can say is this, that it feels that this VIP Plaza is already a product of what has been discussed hin and forth here so far.

I expect a few changes after it has been launched, because others can visualize far more what was in my head.

Can't wait what the responses will be like!!! :) Very Exiting!!!

Dimitri,

Thanks. That makes it a bit more clear. Although we all use English i seems sometimes difficult to understand each others meaning.
In your previous posts you gave me impression you thought you had answered the questions. Please be aware that this reading something different then you wanted to say may happen. I can be very frustrating but may easily happen between people with a different frame of reference.

Dimitri Gazan, please remember that project descriptions are fully indexed by Google, - You break my privacy when linking to me like you did in your Project Plaza, because my privacy setting is set to hide from being indexed by Google.

I want to be public for registered Geni users, not outside Geni because I have had way too many personal attacks due to my role in Geni.

That is good to hear, Job Waterreus. I think you are right, misunderstandings can easily happen between different langages and cultures.
Again I am no expert on that as well. We keep on learning :)

As long as we can all remain respectful and have a bit of patience, these things should get solved in a good manner. But I will take your comment with me, as a good reminder of this.

Thanx

Private User, does that mean that not only the hyperlink to your personal profile as well as the link to your Wiki Project has to be removed because of it?

Meantime I will disable your profile page link.

Good remark, and I will do all necesairy corrections needed.

Thanx

See what you mean Private User

I have deactivated the project link for you.

Is it an idea to refer to the project dashboard where your project can be found?

The point is that my full name is hidden outside Geni. Project members are not listed in the public version of a project, the full Project Description is.

The fact that view of a project and public profiles is different when seen from the outside (i.e. not logged in) is also why I stopped experimenting with the limited WikiText capabilities to make things look good. Instead I want to put a higher pressure on Geni to offer us full WikiText capability as in Wikipedia.

THEN we can make really nice looking projects...

Well keep on pushing Bjørn, because that would be really nice!

Private User, 2 things;

I just woke up...so I was looking my my eyes half closed LOL
I saw in the revisions that you only deleted the reference to you, as a project manager.

Now I deactivated the link to your Wiki Project. I assume I can reactivate that again, am I right?

(sorry for the trouble I am making)

Well it has taken most of the day for me to just catch up on this "discussion" but i do not feel any wiser.

Lets go back to basics. "What is a Project?"
A Project is a web page dedicated to a particular topic (as broad or as narrow as the team feels like it being). The Project page then acts as a hub for Documents, Media, Discussions and Profiles that are relevant to that Project.

"What is a Profile?"
A Profile is a web page dedicated to a particular person (only ever one person!). The Profile page has Tabs for Documents, Media and Discussions that are relevant to that Profile.

The difference that i can see is that Profile pages are only linked to Immediate Family members whereas Project pages can have any number of unrelated people linked to them.
So the benefit of a Project page dedicated to a single Profile is that profiles of unrelated people can be linked to it, anything else?

Private User, we would be stupid if we did not join forces here.

We should built a case together. I have got a couple of exemplary projects, you most likely as well. We can point out that there is a will, a need and a widespread appreciating for making the appearance of projects in general visually much more appealing.

Just very recently, a new collective has started between Loretta Alexandra, M268111, Anette Guldager Boye and me. We put our creative minds together and work side by side to built new projects together. We make them visually more attractive and make our concepts refreshing, to hopefully create a decent audience which support the direction we are taking with this.

I assume in the nearby future we will launch a project where we will introduce ourselves as a collective and give a good list of examples of what we think how visually and conceptionally projects should look like, according to our vision that is, of course :)