Alpaïs, daughter of Charlemagne & Amaltrude - Smerged locked profiles! Alpais d.o. Charlemagne with Alpaida d.o. Louis I

Started by Sharon Doubell on Thursday, July 18, 2013


Profiles Mentioned:

Showing 1-30 of 38 posts
7/18/2013 at 7:03 AM

I have noticed this before and just been too busy to fix it yet again - but now I've also been contacted by users querying it, so I'd like to make a note here that this profile has obviously been smerged against the Curator Note & lock that read:
"This Alpaida is a daughter of Louis I & Amaltrude, please do NOT merge her with a daughter of Charlemagne. (See About Me for discussion on Count Begue's 3 possible wives) Locked because prone to mis-merges. Contact me if you want to merge/add to it."

We know it must have been smerged because her profile name actually reads: 'Alpaïs, daughter of Charlemagne & Amaltrude' (to prevent exactly what has happened anyway) & she is positioned according to that in the tree.

Further, Louis I no longer has a wife called Amaltrude at all.

Someone may be in the middle of a move-around due to new research info or big-picture decisions about Chuckie's tree (eg about Louis' partner, Amaltrude), but in an area of such high traffic (Chuckie being half the world's grandpa) it is inadvisable to do this without logging in a Discussion what changes are being made and why, so that others can follow what you're doing/did if there's a mistake.

We even set up a project expressly for this purpose: - not because our version is set in stone, but because this part of the tree has so many ambiguous areas that unless we all let everyone else know what we're doing, the line becomes a smudge in no time at all.

Please let me know if there was a plan behind this smudge. eg It might be that there is new info proving there wasn't an Amaltrude partner of Louis - so they 'should' be one profile. Then we can update the template and try to lock in the changes.
At the moment though, it's hard to figure out if this is an intentional plan or an accidental error (happens to everyone), so it's difficult to work out what 'fix' is appropriate.

7/18/2013 at 7:10 AM

I noticed this day before yesterday, but assumed you were doing something. I did several merges based on her name and existing relationship to Charlemagne -- despite the contents of the curator note.

7/18/2013 at 7:32 AM

I think it's likely that it's just time for another house-keeping sweep on this line, Justin. We seem, to my mind, to be having to do too many Duplicate Merge-Ins at the mo, but I'm reluctant to say anything until the Add Manager option is back up and running.

At the moment I'm back on the Herodean (Saulus/Paulus and Josephus in particular) so I don't want to do a major clean-up here right this minute. I also have a feeling this smerge might still be a leftover part of something George J. Homs was trying to do with the Count Beggo ambiguity, so his input on whether he'd decided to eradicate Louisi's partner and daughter would be useful before we proceed.

7/18/2013 at 7:48 AM

Thanks cuzzin Bill, they're definately the same - I'm just trying to figure out if Dalest Wendy Bruce is trying to build a separate tree. I don't think so as it's merged in lower down.

Private User
7/18/2013 at 2:42 PM

Has anyone calculated approximately how many probable descendants Chuckie actually has?

Private User
7/18/2013 at 2:42 PM

Has anyone calculated approximately how many probable descendants Chuckie actually has?

Private User
7/18/2013 at 2:43 PM

Sorry for repeat ...IPad, grrrr

7/18/2013 at 11:39 PM

Pamela - if you go onto his profile there are a couple of links to articles that might have done.

Private User
7/19/2013 at 2:54 AM

Sharon I do not want to go there as it seems du Plessis and you know how "heilig" I am about them.
I just wanted to say I love your new profile pic.

Private User
7/21/2013 at 10:52 AM

Thanks Sharon!

Private User
7/22/2013 at 3:47 AM

Thanks Sharon - ag nee, julle maak my skoon deurmekaar/deurmekruis.

7/18/2014 at 1:29 AM

It's been a year now and the profile name and curator's note are still at odds, unless someone is working in the area very slowly....?

I've ended up here via her daughter(?) Susanne of Paris, Comtess of Flavigny.

Suzanne (doesn't sound very aristocratic) has profiles for mother and father which match her About section but the two profiles are not married so Conflict Resolution Centre will not allow them to both be made parents.

7/18/2014 at 2:00 AM

Alex, I'll go and take a look. Give me a moment though, The South Africans are having a heated debate on showing biological accuracy vs legal (adoptive) accuracy on the GENI tree & in their numbering systems. - Nailbiting stuff at the very edge of the GENi vanguard :-)
Poke me if I forget to sort this out in the next day or two (not year :-)

7/18/2014 at 2:57 AM
Vers 806, il épouse Alpaïs2(793/794 - † 23 juillet 852 ou après), fille de l'empereur Louis le Pieux. Il a les enfants suivants :

Le futur comte Leuthard II de Paris
selon Maurice Chaume et selon Michael Mitterauer, une fille Engeltrude qui épouse Unroch I., cte en Alémanie et duc du Frioul
probablement Landrade, qui épouse le comte Donat Ier de Melun (v.790 - † ap.858/av.871)3, et ont comme enfants4 :
Gosselin (ou Gozlin), comte de Bassigny ;
Gontier ;
Hugues ;
Waltrude ;
Robert, évêque du Mans ;
Boson ;
Suzanne qui épouse le comte Vulfard de Flavigny avec lequel elle a pour enfants : ....

it say Bégon married around 806, Alpaïs daughter of Louis le Pieux

7/18/2014 at 8:33 AM

Alex, this area of the tree requires constant maintenance. I did some preliminary repair, but Sharon will need to take a look and re-conform the profile to previous discussions.

A user had deleted Beggue as father of Alpais' children, which ultimately had a cascading affect. Another user added a new Beggue. Etc.

Part of the problem is left over from the early days of Geni merging when we tried to have duplicate profiles to represent different reconstructions. That turned out to be very difficult to maintain.

Sharon, this is the profile that needs focus: Alpaïs de Paris, Abbesse de St-Pierre de Reims. As you noted last July, because of the smerge the curator note claims the profile is both Alpais daughter of Charlemagne and Alpais daughter of Louis.

7/18/2014 at 11:18 AM

Suzanne de Paris

Alpaïs /Alpaida de Paris Bégon Comte de Paris

Louis I le Pieux de FRANCE
Ermengarde de HESBAYE

Charles I Le Grand de FRANCE aka Charlemagne
Hildegarde DE VINTZGAU

7/18/2014 at 5:14 PM

What's a "smerge"?

7/18/2014 at 7:30 PM


7/19/2014 at 1:42 AM

Thank ou for that enlightening explanation :-)

7/19/2014 at 3:09 AM

Coming back here as soon as the Adoption vs DNA tree cools down.

7/19/2014 at 8:08 AM

Alex, in other words two profiles were merged that were different people.

7/22/2014 at 6:20 AM

Thankyou Martin RhNegativ. Can you confirm for me that the French wikipedia article placing Alpais as Louis' child is entirely dependent on citations from Cawley's Medieval Lands?

Justin Swanström I'm not finding Settipani's original argument (Settipani (1993), pp. 200-02).anywhere - Only references to it. Have you by any chance got it anywhere? (and a translation :-))

7/22/2014 at 6:32 AM

Why I ask, Martin RhNegativ - is because the Christian Settipani, book: La préhistoire des Capétiens, 1993 pp 200-2 is in French.

7/22/2014 at 7:27 AM

hi Sharon on wiki

Vers 806, il épouse Alpaïs2 (-------------------- (793/794 - † 23 juillet 852 ou après), fille de l'empereur Louis le Pieux. Il a les enfants suivants

but for Louis le Pieux on wiki at the bottom down the page a little mention with no identify mother

├─Aupaïs (vers 793 - † 852) épouse de Bégon de Paris, fils de Gérard Ier de Paris

they call her AUpais ...

can you give me a link for La préhistoire des Capétiens,

7/22/2014 at 7:53 AM

son mariage avec Ermengarde de Hesbaye (morte en 818), il a trois fils, Lothaire Ier, Pépin Ier et Louis, et deux filles. En 817

from marriage with Ermengarde de Hesbaye 3 son and 2 girl born in 817élaïs-de-Aquitane/6000000007806371578
it is possible its this profile?
they say 819 maybe its 817

7/22/2014 at 7:54 AM

realy confusing

7/22/2014 at 8:25 AM

It is, isn't it?
Don't worry about the Settipani book - We haven't been able to find it either :-)

I've updated the About me - and removed all the contradictions and additions from the smerged profiles.

This is it 'in a nutshell:
Alpaida's ancestry is in doubt. She was either the half-sister or daughter of Louis the Pious:

So Either
1) Alpaida (b.794) - Charlemagne's daughter by his concubine Amaltrud of Vienne (supported by Settipani)
2) Alpais - one of two illegitimate children fathered by Louis the Pious with his concubine - possibly called Theodelinde of Sens
(supported by Cawley & the French wikipedia)

The 10th Century chronicler, Flodoard is a primary source, while both Cawley and Settipani are secondary sources - presenting conflicting conclusions. Settipani (arguing for Charlemagne's daughter), contradicts Flodoard (arguing for Louis' daughter), based on consideration of other primary sources (which we haven't found).
Cawley appears to be most likely to dominate because, although Settipani's conclusions are possibly more accurate, Cawley is more available to Geni users on the net.

So, I'm going to go for the 2nd option - and place her as a daughter of Louis. The attempt to keep her with a ghost profile in both places having failed.

7/22/2014 at 9:58 AM

Sharon, I don't have a copy of La préhistoire des Capétiens and I don't have photocopies of the relevant pages. (I should probably just buy a copy. I need it often enough, but used copies are usually about $200 and I don't find a copy for sale at Abe Books right now). WorldCat shows me the closest library to me is at University of Kansas, 500 miles away. There is also a copy at NEHGS in Boston. If we get desperate we can appeal to one of the users who are members there to get a copy.

I think Settipani's argument is based on chronology. This seems to be confirmed by a post at SGM. This post presents three reconstructions for the ancestry of Alpais (and daughter Susanna), based on Werner, Hlawitschka, and Settipani. A summary quote from Moriarty says, "She [Alpais] is often called a natural daughter of the Emperor Lewis the Pious but other authorities style her a natural daughter of Charlemagne, which is undoubtedly, for chronological reasons, correct."!searchin/soc.genealogy.medi...

A snippet view of La préhistoire des Capétiens from Google Books on p 202 says:

... avoir abordé de façon détaillée la question, la plus grandes vraisemblance est un faveur d'une fille de Charlemagne. Flodoard apporte trois renseignements généalogiques que l'on ne retrouve pas dans les annales de Lorsh:
-- l'épouse de Beggo se nommair Alpais
-- elle était fille de l'empereur Louis Ier
-- ses enfants se nommaient Eberhard et Leuthard
La source de son information est une donation que fit Alpais à ses deux fils pour un ...

Rough translation:
... addressed the question in detail, the greater likelihood is for a daughter of Charlemagne. Flodoard gives three pieces of genealogical information not found in the annals of Lorsh:
- The wife is Beggo is named Alpais
- She was the daughter of Emperor Louis I
- Their children were named Eberhard and Leuthard
The source of his information is a donation that ​​Alpais made to her two sons for ...

So, Settipani is arguing with a contemporary source, apparently Flodoard. I thought it might be helpful to follow up on that.

German Wikipedia says Alpais was a daughter of Louis I. I like German Wikipedia for these things because the Germans often take more time to detail the sources than do the English and French.

German Wikipedia cites the Annales Hildesheimenses (815): Biego de amici regis, qui et filiam imperatoris nomine Elpheid duxit uxorem, eo tempore defunctus est. (Beggo, of the king's friends, and who took to wife a daughter of the emperor named Alpais), died at this time (815).

It also cites Ann. Laur. Min (Cod Fuldensis): "Picco, primus de amicis regis, qui et filiam imperatoris duxit uxorem, defunctus est." [ nomine Elpheid ] Ann. Hildesh. (Beggo, first among the king's friends, and who took to wife a daughter of the emperor, died).

And it provides the citation to Flodoard. Hist. Rémens. eccles. p.448: "Quod cenobium postea per precariam ipsius Alpheidis vel filiorum eius Letardi et Ebrardi ad partem et possessionem Remensis devenit ecclesie."

This just says "Alpais as well as her sons Leuthard and Eberhard", so I wanted to see the the full context from Flodoard.

Flodoard says, ""Quod monasterium Ludowicus Alpheidi, filie sue, uxori Begonis comitis, dono dedit eidemque sacro loco immunitatis praeceptum delegavit, ut et pater ipsius, Karolus imperator, egerat olim. Quod cenobium postea per precariam ipsius Alpheidis vel filiorum eius Letardi et Ebrardi ad partem et possessionem Remensis devenit ecclesie."

So, yes. In Flodoard, Alpais wife of Count Beggo is the daughter of Louis, who is identified as the son of Charlemagne.

I don't know that we can go further than this. Two contemporary sources say Alpais was daughter of an emperor. A third, Flodoard, a few generations later specifically says she was daughter of Louis, but the chronology (apparently) fits better for Charlemagne.

I just we combine the different Alpaises into one (if we haven't) already, make an arbitrary choice about where to put her, cite Flodoard, and detail what we know about the arguments in the About Me. I'd be inclined to follow Flodoard, reasoning that Settipani is just a theory. A very excellent theory maybe, but still just a theory. I wouldn't be upset if someone else would prefer to follow Settipani. Since we don't know absolutely, someone will argue no matter what we choose.

7/22/2014 at 10:00 AM

Cross posted. Good solution, Sharon.

Showing 1-30 of 38 posts

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